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  1. #1
    Senior Member Briareos's Avatar
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    Is Racing On My CAAD 2 A Risky Thing To Do?

    I'm currently building a racing bike, and theonly frame I have to ues is a CAAD 2 (1986), in very good condition, road about 10 miles before put into storage then sold to me.

    Going to use mostly Dura-Ace 7400 (I'm sure many of you know, I've been talking about it for a year), stiil deciding between the 7700 RD or the 7400 RD that CAN be modified to go to 9 speed ( I have a 9 speed DA cassette I REALLY want to use since it's been laying around since I bought it), using bar-ends with DT-FD lever.

    Should be fun, but a frame falling apart in a race doesn't sound fun at all. I know the older CAAD's have problems, so what do you guys think?

  2. #2
    ..... Jynx's Avatar
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    If you dont want to use it pick up a cheap aluminum leader frame. 717r is only $139.


    http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd_ld_780r.cfm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Briareos View Post
    I know the older CAAD's have problems, so what do you guys think?
    The only problems I've heard have been the pre-CAAD bikes, the 2.8 and 3.0.

    I may be wrong on this... I probably am... but I don't think CAAD2 was ever at the top of Cannondale's frame line. I think the frame development went straight from the 2.8 to the CAAD3, and the CAAD2 was always a lower-end model, less tube manipulation, higher weight, probably stronger. I think you should have a pretty strong frame on your hands, but you could get quite a bit lighter without spending a ton.
    I don't even use the offensive term "Fred." -- Sheldon "All Cyclists Are My Friends" Brown (1944-2008)

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    The frame will be fine based on your description. However your nomenclature and the year contradict each other. In 1986 there was no "CAAD" (did you mean 1996?). In fact I don't think 3.0s existed yet, I think it was what we fondly called the "5.0" (not an official name). This was a super heavy duty frame, one that was capable of supporting 150 pounds or more on the rear dropouts *without* a wheel in the frame. You can tell if the seat stays are thick, oval (in the non-aero plane), and about the same size as the chainstays.

    If you meant 1996 disregard the notes about CAAD stuff. You can compare your bike to the catalogs listed here:
    http://www.vintagecannondale.com/catalog.html
    They are in pdf format.

    I imagine you'd have pointed out any cracks, corrosion, or damaged tubes in your description if they existed.

    Regarding 2.8s and 3.0s - for the era, they were fine. I raced a 2.8 and a 3.0 frame until either I crashed them enough times that the frame no longer tracked straight (2.8 - with dents or gouges in every tube except the head tube after 4 crashes one season) or until I upgraded out of the frame (3.0, which I still have). The only problems with them were typically cracks after massive miles or the fact that the tubes were bowed in the heat treating process. Since I cracked a Specialized M2 S-Works frame ("metal matrix", allegedly stronger than standard aluminum) and an aluminum Giant TCR frame, yet I never cracked a Cannondale frame, I can only talk about Cannondale frames cracking as an observer, not as someone who experienced it.

    I think that worrying about the rider would be the most important thing. Agonizing over component decisions won't be very productive if you're not riding regularly in a group situation. You don't mention having other bikes to ride but if you have them, I'd race on that if they're appropriate for racing. Getting used to the bike/frame is probably the best thing you can do - in other words, build the bike with whatever, get on the thing, and ride.

    As far as components go, I can guarantee you that you won't notice the difference between Ultegra and DA, for example, especially if you're using a bar end shifter for the rear derailleur, at least not for 1500-2000 miles. Front derailleur I think a steel cage derailleur is better than AL or Ti or carbon caged derailleurs because you can tweak them, and with a DT shifter, brand doesn't matter. The biggest difference between the new groups is durability when dealing with wear. Crashing is pretty similar - if you wrecked one you'd probably have wrecked the other.

    cdr

  5. #5
    Senior Member Briareos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
    If you dont want to use it pick up a cheap aluminum leader frame. 717r is only $139.


    http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd_ld_780r.cfm
    Thanks for the suggestion, the thought has already cross my mind. Leader bikes are great, but would look HORRIBLE with DA 7400 and bar-end shifters. And yes that matters to me...

    Maybe I'll go full 7700...Or Rival.

    Aki: Thanks for the great advice, as usual. You're absolutely right in saying that I should just ride. The frame in question is a 1996 (error in original post, it was late...) Cannondale Caad-2, doesn't say anything about it being 2.8.

    The bike is equipped with full RSX; and when I mean full, I mean right down to the hubs. It's heavy, shifts kinda funny sometimes, and it's a triple...But I can ride it.

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    Okay, I'm familiar with that bike.

    It's a great functioning bike. I always liked to see racers show up with functional, relatively inexpensive bikes with long stems, racing saddle, wider bars, clipless pedals, and ride with the rest of the field.

    It's a decent frame, a 3.0 road frame if you will, they marketed it as a CAAD2 (the 2.8 had a cone shaped downtube, the 3.0 crit frame had a massive downtube, the 3.0 road and the CAAD2 frame had a normal sized downtube - the CAAD2 had some extra feature or non-feature but I can't remember, maybe the BB shell wasn't butted). You'll be fine on that frame until you need a wider rear hub for 10s.

    I think the bar end and downtube combo will work great too.

    If you want to be a bit more "roadie", get a shorter bottom bracket axle (a new cartridge bearing bb would work fine) and remove the third ring. The first two rings should work fine, but they may be steel. If so, any current 130 mm BCD ring will work.

    A short cage rear derailleur will reduce the amount of chain slap when you go from the big to small ring but it won't affect shifting in the rear. Unscrew the b-screw as much as you can without getting pulley-cog interference in the smallest gear (small ring, big cog). If the chain hangs loose on the small-small then shorten it (or tighten the b-screw). Keeping it unscrewed will quicken any shifting at the rear.

    Tweak the front cage - squeeze the front of the cage together just a hair. Improves front shifting. Put it as low as possible, just enough so it clears the big ring. You can add a chain watcher (anti-dump-chain device) on that frame. If you can, use the metal-guard-with-plastic-clamp N-Gear Jumpstop - I had them on all my Cannondales in that generation. Better than the plastic Chainwatcher with the hose clamp inside of it.

    Proper fit is critical. The stem, bars, and seat need to fit you.

    For quick weight loss on the bike while getting fit, focus on the seat (find a favorite and move it from bike to bike), seat post (27.2 mm - should be movable to any frame you get, even the 31.6 mm Cannondales - I use a shim with my 27.2 post, works great, third bike for this post), stem (since you probably need to get a different size might as well get a stiffer and lighter one), bars (ditto, but lighter might be the only choice - I believe the bars were extremely heavy on that bike).

    You can also get good tires. For one set of tires for everything I'd use the Michelin Krylions. Durable and raceable. They will cut weight off your bike and make it more responsive.

    Ultimately you'll want different wheels - that'll be your biggest upgrade. I think the rims weren't that great, Wolber maybe, the eyelets would crack because they were single eyelet rims, not double eyelet (for lighter weight). I believe they came built with 15g/1.8mm spokes too, but I may be remembering incorrectly. New, smoother hubs with new resilient spokes with some aero or light or stiff rim. Aero is the best choice but probably most expensive. I wouldn't bother with getting lighter wheels unless they were a lot lighter, like in the 1200 gram or less range. I'd focus on aero at ~1500 grams first.

    The brake levers and calipers usually have some play in them. A higher quality set of calipers will have less play. Functionally the levers will be virtually identical so leave them be.

    RSX hubs are not worth rebuilding, not even for training wheels. My experience with them (and 105 of that generation - the painted "new 105") is that the hub shells were oval and the cones and races wore unevenly. Not a factor now but makes the hubs not worth rebuilding. Once the wheels go toss them out. Get some Ultegra hubs or better if you want to do that. You may be able to find some decent wheels for cheap. What's the inside width of your rear dropouts (from one to another)? 126mm?

    Heck I'd race that bike the way I just described it. Put on some nice 50mm tubular wheels and the bike would be 99% of any bike out there, at least for crits. For me it'd be a nice welded tubular steel quill stem, any light post (Thomson or Campy for me), my standard crit bar (but an alloy 3ttt bar would be light and offer more bends), my seat, some aero wheels with a 12-21 in back, and bam, instant crit bike.

    You're making me want to hurry up my 3.0 crit bike build-to-1989-spec project.

    Good luck with the bike and the racing,
    cdr

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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    It's a decent frame, a 3.0 road frame if you will, they marketed it as a CAAD2 (the 2.8 had a cone shaped downtube, the 3.0 crit frame had a massive downtube, the 3.0 road and the CAAD2 frame had a normal sized downtube - the CAAD2 had some extra feature or non-feature but I can't remember
    The CAAD frames don't have cantilevered dropouts; I think the 2.8 and 3.0 do.
    I don't even use the offensive term "Fred." -- Sheldon "All Cyclists Are My Friends" Brown (1944-2008)

  8. #8
    ..... Jynx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Unscrew the b-screw as much as you can without getting pulley-cog interference in the smallest gear (small ring, big cog). If the chain hangs loose on the small-small then shorten it (or tighten the b-screw). Keeping it unscrewed will quicken any shifting at the rear.

    Tweak the front cage - squeeze the front of the cage together just a hair. Improves front shifting. Put it as low as possible, just enough so it clears the big ring.

    cdr

    Is this only applicable to the older cannodale or would this be good advice for any new bike?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
    Is this only applicable to the older cannodale or would this be good advice for any new bike?
    This applies to all bikes.

    A long cage rear derailleur, designed to take up a lot of chain slack (i.e. 35+ tooth difference, like 20T up front and 15T in the rear), has a lot of "swing" in the cage. The spring is no stronger than a short cage rear derailleur. If you remove the third ring off the front, you end up with a lot of extra chain and a derailleur with a lot of extra slack capacity. The right length chain and a short cage derailleur will tighten things up.

    Almost any steel cage front derailleur can be squeezed a bit. I routinely did this on bikes over a 15 year period in a bike shop, probably thousands and thousands of bikes. It makes even the worst derailleurs shift better - faster downshifts, more solid upshifts, no more rubbing than normal. You have to have two things done first:

    1. Your derailleur angled left-right correctly first. Usually the outer cage is parallel with the chain in the big ring, but you should read the derailleur's instructions. If you don't have any, and the inner cage isn't parallel to the outer one, then make the outer cage parallel to the chain in the big ring. Since outer cages aren't straight (they typically curve in at the front) you should make the longest straight part of the cage parallel.

    2. You have to have the derailleur as low as possible. I put mine so low I can tell when my pivots develop a bit of play because my front derailleur will start scraping the chainring - typically <1 mm of clearance, not the 4 or 5 mm which is recommended. If you're dealing with a used derailleur you'll have to raise it a bit because the act of pulling on a slightly worn derailleur will make it flex/move in directions it's not supposed to move. With the case of virtually all current front derailleurs (four pivots), the first bit of cable pull moves the cage of a worn-pivot front derailleur *down*, not up/out.

    There are exceptions:
    1. You have a dent in the seat tube from an over enthusiastic wrencher and now your front derailleur only sits in one place. Or you're paranoid about denting your seat tube so you leave the derailleur alone (this is the case with my current bike - my derailleur clears the bit ring by a massive 5-6 mm).
    2. You have a carbon, ti, or aluminum cage (high end Shimano have aluminum for a while). Can't bend them or at least you shouldn't.
    3. If the distance between the front plates is about equal to the width of the chain then you can't squeeze it any more (i.e. you've already squeezed it a bunch of times).

    hope this helps,
    cdr

  10. #10
    Senior Member Briareos's Avatar
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    This is what I was thinking along the lines of...

    Frameset: Cannondale CAAD 2, Brushed aluminum with black DT decals retained.

    Headset: 1" Dura-Ace (any model)

    Stem: Nitto manufactured Dura-Ace limited model stem (preferable), if I can't get that...I have no idea's for lightweight quill stems (Nitto Pearl?).

    Bars: Whatever fits the stem really. I'd like a flattish top using DA 7400 brake-levers however, with anatomic bend.

    Post: Dura-Ace 27.2"

    Saddle: Fizik Aliante.

    Crankset/Crankarms: DA 7400 (excellent condition...). 52/42 Biopace chainrings.

    R. Derailleur: DA 7402 (modified for 9-speed, as I was told was possible).

    F. Derailleur: Dura-Ace, whatever works with Biopace chainrings.

    R. Shifter: Bar-end. Bars will be cut shorter for more readily available shifts because Aki said so.

    F. Shifter: Dura-Ace 7400 downtube.

    Cassette: 12-23 Dura-Ace 9-speed.

    Chain: No idea. Dura-Ace 9-Speed? I want it to be quiet.

    Pedals: Keo Cassic, wouldn't minding spending some money on lighter pedals since that is one of the few places on the bike I can away with it.

    Shoes: Old-school Nike shoes (With bright neon "swoosh" symbol no less). They're lace-ups and I really like how they look, nice and black. If I had to replace them I'd get Puma's classic black/3-stripers.


    And finally...

    Wheelset: American Classic Sprint 350's, silver. Decals left on (nice black contrast color scheme against all the silver would look great!).

    Tubes: None! Gonna try velocity Veloplugs.

    Tires: No ide!

  11. #11
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    I missed this post

    Quill stem - a tubular steel stem will be stiffer, if that's what you want. The Nitto will work fine though and the DA AX stem (I believe that was it) was super nice (and probably pretty rare).

    BioPace - you have a reason for this? Usually it reduces your ability to spin. Some folks used a round big ring and a BP small ring, but even then, people sort of phased them out.

    Front der - BP was designed to work with Shimano's normal front derailleurs. Mount it high enough to barely clear the big ring when it's "tallest" and you should be set. I'd use a inner chain watcher type thing if you use BP.

    Chain - you can use any 9 or 10s chain. I used to use XT chains for a long time, check mtb chains (Shimano). They'll be quiet and strong.

    Shoes - I don't know if you have straps on those shoes but you'll need them for clipless pedals if you don't. I jury rigged straps on my non-strapped shoes.
    http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...-and-pics.html

    Hope this helps

    cdr

  12. #12
    Senior Member Briareos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    I missed this post

    Quill stem - a tubular steel stem will be stiffer, if that's what you want. The Nitto will work fine though and the DA AX stem (I believe that was it) was super nice (and probably pretty rare).

    BioPace - you have a reason for this? Usually it reduces your ability to spin. Some folks used a round big ring and a BP small ring, but even then, people sort of phased them out.

    Front der - BP was designed to work with Shimano's normal front derailleurs. Mount it high enough to barely clear the big ring when it's "tallest" and you should be set. I'd use a inner chain watcher type thing if you use BP.

    Chain - you can use any 9 or 10s chain. I used to use XT chains for a long time, check mtb chains (Shimano). They'll be quiet and strong.

    Shoes - I don't know if you have straps on those shoes but you'll need them for clipless pedals if you don't. I jury rigged straps on my non-strapped shoes.
    http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...-and-pics.html

    Hope this helps

    cdr

    Shoes aren't THAT old school. They have a 3-point LOOK system, use KEO Classic's with them now.

    I've decided not to try and jury rig a DA R.D. to run 9-speed and will run it in it's original 8-speed setup (why risk it in a race over 1/2 gears?). Which means I need to find out if AC 350's work with 8-speed cassette's (Do they, the site doesn't say...), get a cassette and a nice chain for it. I would love to minimlize the sound/clunkiness of the drive-train as much as possible, have any cassette (Might just get DA to do 'er right) and chain combo's?

    I only choose to use Biopace because it's what came on the cranks and they take some getting used to but are interesting; switching to normal rings won't be a problem. This could possibly allow me to run those giant shimano TT big-rings with "DURA-ACE" emblazoned on them...(With matching 14-28 cassette of course).

  13. #13
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Oh man, you MUST post pix when you're done with this. And I want you to go kick some boootay in the races.

    .

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