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Old 05-01-08, 08:18 PM   #1
king-tony
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Tony's TT position V 1.02

I went by VeloSports Performance Center in Asheville, NC for some TT position tweaking and to see their new Dartfish software. Andy had worked on my initial position in February, but I wanted to see if there were any improvements we could make since I now have a few races and many miles on the bike - plus I am down about 12 pounds and thought I may have a little more clearance between my thigh and midsection. Immediately Andy noticed that I had moved the saddle to a more nose down position. Stupid me did not consider that since you ride these bikes on the node that this is equivalent to lowering the saddle height. When pedaling it was pretty obvious that my leg was not extended very well. The saddle was raised a little under half a cm to get me in the proper position. There were two significant changes that were made. First was to move my elbows in. In the first session the goal was to align my wrist, elbow and shoulder in a single plane. However, after some testing on his teamates early in the season we moved to a slightly elbow in position. The second change was to bring the bar extensions up a little. Because of the way my bars are made moving the elbow pads moved me up slightly so spacers were removed and I actually ended up a little lower in the front than when I left the last session. Right now I am at just under 14cm of drop and the saddle is 5.5cm behind the BB. One of the key things that I was shown was the difference it makes when I pull my shoulders in and slightly hunch my back. While not very comfortable, I could see a signifcant different in the profile and rear views as my head almost vanished completely when filmed from behind. It is going to take a lot of practice for me to get used to this. I did 25 minutes in the position today and I had to really focus. Another thing the camera picked up was my tendancy to look down from time to time like I am checking my gearing. No idea why I do this, but now that I am aware I can try to stop it.

Here is what I left with:



and



PS, if you are going to be fit on a TT bike, take your aero helmet.

PPS, one other thought I had been wearing my helmet tilted back, but not nearly enough. Now it is almost up to my scalp. While this defeats some of the purpose in wearing a helmet, it is well worth it since it will likely move me from 13th to 12th in the district TT championships...
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Old 05-01-08, 08:38 PM   #2
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Your front end is pretty high. Stretching + gradually lowering = mucho faster. Drop your head some, and basically look through the tops of your eyes (you're not going to see a whole lot). That'll help too.
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Old 05-01-08, 08:45 PM   #3
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I love the Flandis position fwiw. Give it a shot.

Why is your saddle 5.5cm rear of the BB? I'm leaps and bounds faster with the saddle about 1cm forward of the BB.

I'll also second UT Dude's dropped stem idea. I got an adjustable Ritchey stem, and basically dropped the front end as low as it can go without getting another frame.
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Old 05-01-08, 09:02 PM   #4
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I love the Flandis position fwiw. Give it a shot.

Why is your saddle 5.5cm rear of the BB? I'm leaps and bounds faster with the saddle about 1cm forward of the BB.

I'll also second UT Dude's dropped stem idea. I got an adjustable Ritchey stem, and basically dropped the front end as low as it can go without getting another frame.

As for the saddle look at my knee and elbow. This is coming over the top. If I am any more forward my knee will be into my elbow. As for lowering the front, at this point I simply do not have the clearance. My hip angle would be further reduced and my thigh would be in my ribs coming over the top. One of the interesting things playing with the software is that he had a shot of Z. and another of Levi from the side. Different body types just fit on bike differently. Z is super low and still has a huge amount of clearance. Also, he is farther back in that his arms are almost 90 degrees with his elbows. I just can't get in that position because my body is not made that way.

Here is what he looks like just to make the point. I could never get in that position.


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Old 05-01-08, 09:10 PM   #5
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Interesting - I haven't ran into the issue of body interference on the TT bike. I feel like I could get a more aggressive seat angle with a forward set post, and be lower (if I could get a stem that'd put me there) and not bump anything.

How is your speed/power on this new setup?

Also, I wouldn't use UCI pros to determine ideal TT positioning (as you clearly didn't, jus' sayin'). They have 'rules'
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Old 05-01-08, 09:56 PM   #6
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Tony looks to be quite tall. I wonder if long legs play into the interference.
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Old 05-01-08, 10:17 PM   #7
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Longer stem will allow more clearance. Also, move your extensions out to get your arms forward in the pads (elbows in the pads).

If you move your saddle way forward, you'll open your hip angle. You'll also have to raise your saddle, increasing your drop, with the effect of "lowering" your front end... all with probably a more open hip angle.

It looks like you've got a LOT of spacers there, so you should be able to lower the front end to close up your hip angle again (since you're already there).

I've re-rotated your image to level your wheels. This demonstrates that you're even higher in front than you look in the original image:


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Old 05-02-08, 06:13 AM   #8
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I bet a longer stem and he'd feel like he's reaching, and lose the skeletal support of the arms.
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Old 05-02-08, 06:32 AM   #9
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I bet a longer stem and he'd feel like he's reaching, and lose the skeletal support of the arms.
Yeah, I think moving the extensions out may be the way to go to improve skeletal support, but the reach can be managed by bumping the saddle forward the same amount, and raising it some.
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Old 05-02-08, 06:38 AM   #10
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It looks like you've got a LOT of spacers there, so you should be able to lower the front end to close up your hip angle again (since you're already there).



One spacer, looks like 5mm. I have the worlds largest head tube......
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Old 05-02-08, 06:44 AM   #11
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One spacer, looks like 5mm. I have the worlds largest head tube......
No way, there's way too much distance between your top tube and the bottom of your stem. Do you have one of those massive cone-topped headsets? How far is the bottom of your stem from the top of your head tube?

When you get to the point of lowering your shoulders more, you can get a headset like this (or an integrated equivalent, as needed):

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Old 05-02-08, 06:53 AM   #12
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It doesn't look like you are over on top of the bike enough. I always though one should strive for the upper arms to be perpendicular to the ground. It also seems your elbows are not far enough forward which might entail longer aero bars. That would open you up a bit to allow the saddle to come bit farther forward.

But if your midsection constraint comes into play, that might negate more changes.
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Old 05-02-08, 06:54 AM   #13
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Tony looks to be quite tall. I wonder if long legs play into the interference.
That is one of the problems. I'm 6'4, but I have a short torso compared to my legs.
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Old 05-02-08, 06:55 AM   #14
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Wobblenaught is a good fit. Are they going to do any further tweaking or is this your final position?
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Old 05-02-08, 06:56 AM   #15
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No way, there's way too much distance between your top tube and the bottom of your stem. Do you have one of those massive cone-topped headsets? How far is the bottom of your stem from the top of your head tube?

When you get to the point of lowering your shoulders more, you can get a headset like this (or an integrated equivalent, as needed):

Yep, I've got one of those cone-shaped headsets. Still I think the headtube is 165mm
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Old 05-02-08, 06:57 AM   #16
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Wobblenaught is a good fit. Are they going to do any further tweaking or is this your final position?
That's it for this year. My big A race for the year is only 9 weeks away and I'm probably not going to do anything else this season.
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Old 05-02-08, 07:13 AM   #17
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Yep, I've got one of those cone-shaped headsets. Still I think the headtube is 165mm
Yeah, when the time comes, you can get a lot lower with a different headset (as well as the stem options). My head tube is 191mm, and I've managed to get my back parallel to the ground.
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