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View Poll Results: Should the promoter get two entry fees?
The second rider should not be charged. 19 55.88%
Tough luck, no refunds. 15 44.12%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-02-08, 07:56 PM   #1
urbanknight
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Shady or fair?

Let's say (hypothetically, of course ) a person can no longer attend a racing event he registered for, so he gives his registration to another rider who didn't get in before the pack was filled. The promoter has already been paid for the first person's entry, but they want to charge the person going in his place full price as well. Is this fair, or just a way of milking the situation to get more cash?
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Old 05-02-08, 08:09 PM   #2
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Is this fair, or just a way of milking the situation to get more cash?
Read the rule book, 1O2(b). Then think about the liability issues of a forged signature on a release of someone who causes injury to a properly registered competitor.
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Old 05-02-08, 09:55 PM   #3
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Read the rule book, 1O2(b). Then think about the liability issues of a forged signature on a release of someone who causes injury to a properly registered competitor.
Let say (hypothetically of course), that this is several days before the race and the promoter knows about the switch, and has prepared a pre-filled out a release form for the substituted rider. There is no forging of signatures involved.
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Old 05-02-08, 09:58 PM   #4
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I think you need a 3rd option for a small administrative fee. (It could get out of hand where somebody registers themselves 10 times so they hold spots for their friends or whoever pays them enough.)
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Old 05-02-08, 10:15 PM   #5
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Are they asking you to pay for SLR this weekend or is this something else?
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Old 05-02-08, 10:26 PM   #6
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Are they asking you to pay for SLR this weekend or is this something else?
Its for SLR. I don't really mind having to pay, but urb doesn't think its right that they should keep his money and charge me for the same "slot". I do agree, but would rather race than worry about $25 or whatever it is. Also, for what its worth, many races have waiting lists, but the guy I spoke to (nice guy, don't get me wrong) sounded like he had never heard of the concept.
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Old 05-02-08, 10:58 PM   #7
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Hi,

Earlier this year I pre-entered the Pine Flats Road Race. A family emergency meant that I couldn't go. I found out about this problem about a week before the race. I had a teammate who was planning to go but hadn't entered yet. I sent an email to the promoter (Velo Promo) and they sent me back a note and said that my teammate could use my entry. No double charges. BTW, the field was not full.
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Old 05-02-08, 11:31 PM   #8
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Well, the cat's out of the bag and almost all of the people responding are involved somehow

I'm not sure what to think. I mean, the policy says no refunds, but I figured they already have the money and switching riders shouldn't be difficult (good point on the "transfer fee" for the trouble, though. It just isn't $35 worth of trouble). My teammate crashed at Torrance and the promoters at Chuck Pontius gave me his entry at no charge. That even included switching the registration from masters to Cat 4. I figured the SLR people could do the same instead of grabbing for an extra $35 when they've already collected $3,500 for a race that pays out $200.

But as far as policies go, they can charge the next person even though they can only do so because I told them in advance that I won't be making it. Just thought it would be nice to spread the good deed. That's all.

And yes, asgelle misunderstood the intent. Sorry if I was unclear.

Anyway, I won't worry about it since someone else gets to be in the race when he wouldn't otherwise have. I'm not able to go anyway, and I didn't expect a refund either way. I just know which clubs are into keeping the cycling community tight, and which just want to raise funds.

btw on that note, the promoters at Torrance were going to ship my spare wheels to me when I left them in the wheel pit (got caught up in walking my teammate from his crash to his car) which was also very nice. Luckily, my wife's coworker lived near the shop and picked them up for me. Just to add another warm and fuzzy story
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Old 05-02-08, 11:35 PM   #9
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Well, the cats out of the bag and almost all of the people responding are involved somehow But I'm not sure what to think. I mean, the policy says no refunds, but I figured they already have the money and switching riders shouldn't be difficult (good point on the "transfer fee" for the trouble, though. It just isn't $35 worth of trouble). My teammate crashed at Torrance and the promoters at Chuck Pontius gave me his entry at no charge. That even included switching the registration from masters to Cat 4. I figured the SLR people could do the same instead of grabbing for an extra $35 when they've already collected $3,500 for a race that pays out $200.

But as far as policies go, they can charge the next person even though they can only do so because I told them in advance that I won't be making it. Just thought it would be nice to spread the good deed. That's all.

And yes, asgelle misunderstood the intent. Sorry if I was unclear.
Look at it this way..
That's $35 more that they can use to FINALLY pay back the $500 in reimbursements they owe me
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Old 05-02-08, 11:37 PM   #10
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^ LOL well when you put it THAT way...
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Old 05-02-08, 11:40 PM   #11
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I'll ask around and see if I can weasel it out of 'em.
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Old 05-02-08, 11:56 PM   #12
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I'll ask around and see if I can weasel it out of 'em.
Don't make a big deal about it on my account. If they feel like doing this was too much trouble they will never allow it again. I'd rather they figure out it wasn't a big deal and make it easier to do in the future.
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Old 05-02-08, 11:59 PM   #13
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^ Yeah, don't want a reason for them to resent being accommodating. In the end, we all got what we wanted... well, I still wanna race, but it's not their fault I can't make it down there anymore
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Old 05-03-08, 12:00 AM   #14
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^ Yeah, don't want a reason for them to resent being accommodating. In the end, we all got what we wanted... well, I still wanna race, but it's not their fault I can't make it down there anymore
See, I just don't show my CFO the credit card bills... problem solved.
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Old 05-03-08, 12:00 AM   #15
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I'll just see what they say. I'm working registration part of the morning, so it's not a big deal.
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Old 05-03-08, 12:02 AM   #16
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And they love me, so that'll make it easier to take
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Old 05-03-08, 01:25 PM   #17
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IMHO, its really up to the promoter,and what rules they choose to set (and communicate.)

Allowing the "transfer" could be a good move for the promoter at little cost to them. It promotes good will (return business) and it may make people more willing to preregister in the future (cash flow).

However, its up to them what terms they choose to establish.
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Old 05-03-08, 06:42 PM   #18
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^ Yeah, considering it's a classic that's older than Pcad and that I think it fills up every year, they probably aren't concerned with people hesitating to preregister.
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Old 05-04-08, 07:29 AM   #19
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As both a promoter and a racer, I think it's totally legit to charge two entries if the flyer says "no refunds".

However, I also think that if a promoter as the time, it's correct to refund a racer that contacts the promoter before the event (ideally more than 2 days prior) to ask about a refund.

Some examples:
1. My co-promoter had a 106 deg fever, hospitalized, called the promoter of a race that coming weekend (it was Tues or something), asked that the registration be either refunded or transferred to a teammate. Promoter refused both. I think this was not ideal (although technically right). 106 fever is not partying too much or some other form of time mis-management - it's a legitimate, unforeseeable thing which (to me) justifies at least a transfer (i.e. "store credit") or a refund. In my case, as a promoter, I refund entries for races the racer can't even start due to crashes, sickness, etc., if I know about it.

2. I am regularly asked to either move registrations around (from one race to another, but on the same day), give a registration to a teammate/friend, or put it towards another week. If I'm asked by Saturday morning or so (Sunday race) I'll do it. Often I'm not on email by Sat late afternoon so I can't do it. On race day we regularly let people transfer their entry to another race or racer (in the latter's case, they fill out a release), or, if they are registered to do two races and after one race are visibly tired, crashed, or it's raining, we'll let them apply the fee to a different week of racing or even give them a refund on the second race. We do all this because that's what I think is the right thing to do.

3. I've refused refunds to racers who ask for a refund following the race. In other words, on Sunday afternoon they emailed me and asked me for a refund since they missed the race. There I have no pity. No refunds or transfers in that case.

In case #1, the promoter that refused to move the entry fee around, I totally dislike his style of race promotion (no refunds, just plain nasty when asked about it). However, in his defense, I also think he is undercharging by about $20-30 per racer. Instead of $30-35, I think he should charge $50-60 (and give out a lot of prize money as well). This is because his race fills every year and this, to me, indicates he's priced below market value. A caveat - at that price, he should transfer or refund entries in extreme cases.

I don't think promoters should be forced to issue refunds though. A while back there was a rule proposed that promoters HAD to issue refunds. There was a scale of refunds - x days before, full refund; a couple days before, less than a full refund; and right before race, even less of a refund. But overall what promoters thought would happen is people would pre-reg then ask for money back based on weather, fitness, burnout, other obligations, etc. The rule failed to pass and I think that was a good thing.

If you don't think a promoter deserves your money, don't go, and tell your friends not to go. It may take a few years but most promoters want your money. A more blatant thing to do is to promote your own race. The latter may make you realize that promoting a race isn't that easy and perhaps it's easier to pay the promoter you previously thought was a jerk and now you realize he's just totally overwhelmed with promoting the race.

If you think a promoter is GOOD, then let them know. Tell all your friends. Post it on your blog or team site. If you have disposable income (you know who you are) then donate some primes. Put your club's name on the prime if you're embarrassed about the small amount ($20 etc). "This upcoming prime is from Velo Cycling Team, $20 prime!!". Guys at my race sometimes raised as much $200 for a single prime (in the 3-4 race!). I hate them for it (I got shelled on one of them) but they meant well.

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Old 05-04-08, 09:28 AM   #20
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For our race (three stages, two days, 400 racers, $8,000 purse) we will let racers "give" their registration to a another racer as long as we have a signed release form and can see the new racer's license. So essentially we can do that up till packet pick up time as long as the original racer tells us about it beforehand.

Refunds are more problematic. We have been pretty flexible in the past, but last year we wound up with something like 50 people who wanted refunds. Everything from, "My coach wants me to race a different race now;" to family emergencies. Our treasurer does these on a case by case basis and may have to be a bit less forgiving this year. It takes a lot of time to do fifty refunds.

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Old 05-04-08, 10:58 AM   #21
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Yeah, I never expected a refund as my reason isn't one to take pity on. The wife simply decided we no longer could afford the road trip. Just thought it would be nice to "give" it to the other rider since I let them know almost a week in advance. Anyway, I'm over it, everyone is happy. I think I just had a bug up my @$$ because I couldn't go
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Old 05-04-08, 11:18 PM   #22
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update: they had me on the pre-reg list and didn't charge me anything. I never requested to them not to pay or otherwise made a big deal about it.
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Old 05-04-08, 11:50 PM   #23
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Glad to hear it.
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