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Thread: Shortest Time

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    Shortest Time

    I just recently got my uscf license and was wondering what the races were like ( ie. speed, length, and so on). I was also curious to find out what the shortest amount of time it has taken someone to go from cat 5 to cat 1.

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    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    At the risk of sounding like a jerk, and I don't mean to...

    CAT I is like the major leagues (within the US cycling world). CAT V is like Little League. Most CAT I's are getting paid in some fashion. CAT V's are recreational, novice racers (basically all you need to do to move up to a IV is to get experience in 10 mass start races and apply for an upgrade and don't do anything dumb). V's and IV's are not out training 5-6 hours per day (jobs, family, etc.). I's have physical talent not posessed by V's or IV's or III's.. If you have talent to be a I, you will probably win your first three races (you need 20 points to move up and 7 points are awarded to the winner of a crit), move up to III, win three races, etc... II's who win a lot (and want to be I's..some do not) usually get picked up by big regional teams that pay minimal amounts of cash (not a living, but a "pro" none the less) and if they win regionally, some get to ride with the Division III teams. If you win a lot there, you might get picked up (like Michael Creed did last week after riding on Prime Alliance) by a team like Postal. But know this...the physical talent these guys posess, less than maybe half a percent of all racers have. The same as any other sport..how many Division I basketball players in the last 10 years have made it to the NBA, for example?

    On page 172 of the USA Cycling rulebook are the rules for moving up.
    You need Adobe to get into the file. If you win a lot, you'll move up automatically. You apply if you have good finishes, but you have to ride a lot..like to move from 5-4 to 4-3 at a minimum it's 25 races with a minimum of top 10 finishes. But check the rulebook...and you will see that to get to CAT I you have to apply directly to the Colorado Springs office.

    I said this in another thread...the last CAT V/IV race I officiated (I made it to CAT II, then rose to the level of my own incompetence) was run over a 30 mile course at an average speed of 28 MPH, with a sprint finish with the five riders who got away duking it out on the radar *** at 37 MPH. That's a V/IV race.
    The higher classifications ride about the same speed for longer distances.
    The deal is to be able to ride at that speed and still have enough left to race at the end. This race was on a fairly flat course.

    This is where you begin to marvel at the physical talent of world-class pros. Armstrong, in the time trials can ride at 32-33 MPH at an average for an hour plus. By himself. No drafting or help. To win. But stages are typically above 25 MPH every day, for three weeks in grand tour events on all kinds of terrain in all kinds of weather. CAT I's in the US might race 2-3 times a week on weekends...in crits usually on streets in flat downtown areas..which is why really good US riders struggle over in Europe as it takes a while to learn to ride on point to point courses over varying terrain with sustained attacks.

    CAT I is typically a professional...CAT II is typically an amateur but in many races the two categories race together.

    Suggestion is for you (if you have not already done so) to join a racing club and experience and learn how to race with someone or a team that will teach you. They can also teach you how to train...you can't just ride a lot, then go try to ride at racing speeds. You will explode. I see it all the time. Learn how to race on a street with 30 or 40 other riders. This is a skill that, if you do not possess it, you will crash and take out a lot of other people with you. And they will look for you afterward. With their damaged equipment and clenched fists.

    racing's not riding....not even close. If you have the basic physical skills to ride at a very high level, even without the technical racing training, you will be able to tell almost right away. Especially in CAT V races.

    enjoy and good luck!! and let us know how you do...
    Last edited by roadwarrior; 01-15-04 at 06:12 AM.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

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    Senior Member Xtrmyorick's Avatar
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    There's a race here in Walla Walla evry spring called the Tour of Walla Walla. Here are some pages of last year's route/results:

    Cat 4/5 route+profile: http://www.tourofwallawalla.org/rr.php?id=5
    (48 mile RR)

    Cat 4/5 results: http://www.tourofwallawalla.org/resu...egory.php?id=3
    (21.1 MPH average for the RR winner)

    Pro/1/2 route: http://www.tourofwallawalla.org/rr.php?id=1
    (95 miles)

    Pro/1/2 results: http://www.tourofwallawalla.org/resu...egory.php?id=1
    (21.9 MPH average)

    So roadwarrior is right in saying that the speed is about the same, the 1/2 riders can just keep it up longer. Remember, though, that you're not riding at 21 MPH effort most of the time (or 28 MPH if you're on roadwarrior's course). Drafting is super easy and super helpful in large groups at these speeds. You'll often not need to pedal at all. You should definitely get out in the wind and work some, though, to keep your legs warm and loose. Otherwise if there's a break and you try to go with them, your legs will most likely say "No, thank you." So basically make sure you work some, but not too much.

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    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    I think people generally expect to move up the ranks faster than actually happens and also don't realize how huge a difference there is between a 5 and a 1. It's not the same as getting a C or an A on your report card. Rather the steps are almost exponential.

    Roadwarrior is right in that people find out pretty quickly if they're cat 2 or 1 material. I don't think many Cat 1 riders slogged along for years to make it where they are. Rather they started winning and moving up pretty quickly. And as he also pointed out, you don't realize how amazing someone like Bettini is until you watch a Cat 1 race and then realize that Bettini and his co-riders are riding at an even higher level. That's when it gets awe inspiring.

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    I appreciate all of the information. I was just a little curious because I have been cycling pretty much most of my life some recreation some not so recreational, as a matter of fact I have two bike days in two seperate cities for bike rides that I have done (named by the mayor of each city). I have done endurance rides of 1000 miles in 8 days. I'm not trying to sound like I know alot about racing because I do not but I would say that I am however more acclimated to the sport than many others. I know that the first race of the season will be a huge learning experience for me and I will then know where I stand, but I do aspire to eventually make cat1 if my talents and abilities allow me to. I currently ride on flat surfaces roughly 23-25mph avg over distances of about 50-60 miles (computer says 18.2 but that is with frequent stops in traffic and going uphill, flat however rarely if ever goes below 23mph). I really do appreciate all the info and I would appreciate more. I really just want to know what to expect. I know almost nothing about racing and would appreciate it if someone would kinda give me some help and teach me what I need to know...well as much as I can through this type of venue. things like what does it mean for a race to be a category 2.6 or 1.5 things like that. I am very appreciative for all of the info already given (it has been a big help) and any info that will be given.

    Thanx

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    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    Good luck and keep it upright.

    Roadwarrior: Obviously not everyone has the physical capabilities to make it to cat 1. If you're like me and just are not genetically blessed, what do you think is the highest level that with a lot of work, one can realistically expect to climb to? Is 2 a possibility? What class seperates the genetically gifted from those who aren't?

    When I was racing cat 5 and citizens classes it was funny how much in awe we were of 2s. Cat 1 riders were just godlike in our eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    Good luck and keep it upright.
    Lol...How did you know...I was just recently involved in a hit and run, lady left me for dead on the side of the road.

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    Elitist Jackass Smoothie104's Avatar
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    When I was in my late teens, we had a criterium course in Orville Ohio. Almost flat, 4 corners, in a sheleterd area with no wind.

    I was a Cat IV back then, and I didn't win but still finished well. I remember looking down at the computer about 1/2 way through the race. Our average speed was over 30mph. damn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    Good luck and keep it upright.

    Roadwarrior: Obviously not everyone has the physical capabilities to make it to cat 1. If you're like me and just are not genetically blessed, what do you think is the highest level that with a lot of work, one can realistically expect to climb to? Is 2 a possibility? What class seperates the genetically gifted from those who aren't?

    When I was racing cat 5 and citizens classes it was funny how much in awe we were of 2s. Cat 1 riders were just godlike in our eyes.
    In our area, there are some extremely good riders (like guys who would be recruited for the Little 500 teams at Indiana University) riding CAT III. I work with a guy who is CAT III, could be a II but just cannot get enough races. He's won at the III level, just not enough to get enough points due to the number of races he's entered.
    It's not a lot different than any other sport..there are a few guys who, based on sheer willpower can make II, or I...but III is a very stout class for guys who are good riders that have jobs and families and can't get all the training hours in that guys who have more flexibility or are younger can get. High III's and low II's are many times split up simply due to the amount of time they can devote to their cycling.
    Someone who is a good technical racer who stays in top shape and has the basic cardio system for endurance sports could make II if they put in the time and have good equipment.
    II's that win a lot..you are getting into, say, the triple AAA level of ballplayer, or a top division I basketball player. Then it becomes mental and the steps are more minute. It's like being a 7 handicap in golf and trying to get to scratch. It's easier to go from a 15 to a 7 with skill improvement..the last few strokes are really tough (there's lots of good PGA golfers, but not everyone can be Tiger Woods or Jack Nicklaus)...bike racing's the same way.
    Making II and winning at the II level are two different things. That's why I eventually stopped, because I'd ride locally and do well, but go outside and take on the big boys, forget it. Now I coach and teach cycling and work in a bike shop along with owning a consulting company so I can do these other things.
    But some guys are truly gifted..we know who they are..and play at a different level entirely.

    BTW..you are automatically moved up in class based on your results. You have to apply to be moved to CAT I.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

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    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by croger152003
    Lol...How did you know...I was just recently involved in a hit and run, lady left me for dead on the side of the road.
    Did they catch the person???
    Man, I'd nail her to the wall...
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

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    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by croger152003
    I appreciate all of the information. I was just a little curious because I have been cycling pretty much most of my life some recreation some not so recreational, as a matter of fact I have two bike days in two seperate cities for bike rides that I have done (named by the mayor of each city). I have done endurance rides of 1000 miles in 8 days. I'm not trying to sound like I know alot about racing because I do not but I would say that I am however more acclimated to the sport than many others. I know that the first race of the season will be a huge learning experience for me and I will then know where I stand, but I do aspire to eventually make cat1 if my talents and abilities allow me to. I currently ride on flat surfaces roughly 23-25mph avg over distances of about 50-60 miles (computer says 18.2 but that is with frequent stops in traffic and going uphill, flat however rarely if ever goes below 23mph). I really do appreciate all the info and I would appreciate more. I really just want to know what to expect. I know almost nothing about racing and would appreciate it if someone would kinda give me some help and teach me what I need to know...well as much as I can through this type of venue. things like what does it mean for a race to be a category 2.6 or 1.5 things like that. I am very appreciative for all of the info already given (it has been a big help) and any info that will be given.

    Thanx
    fyi...if you want to just get some basic info on racing essentials (how to get ready to race, how to train, racing skills, and strategy and tactics) try a book I have recommended before by Kendra and Renee' Wenzel called "Bike Racing 101". For some more scientific training information, like building a mileage base, increasing power, nutrition, planning your season, and racing things like the best positioning, pedaling stroke, and some on tactics, try, the late Dr. Edmund Burke's book "Serious Cycling". Both are good, but Burke's is pretty in-depth, like an encyclopedia. Not a cover to cover read, but an excellent resource guide.
    I think any bookstore would have them, or Amazon.

    I can't emphasize this enough...join a racing club and ride with them. Many clubs actively look for new racers. It's a great chance to ride with guys who race when little is on the line except who buys the beer afterward...when you are racing, even at the entry level, it gets a lot more serious and few have a sense of humor. It's a lot more fun to learn "off" the job so to speak and you will then get a chance to take what you learn to a real race and apply it. If it's a good club, they even might have sessions specifically to teach new racers how to race. What to do and what not to do which can get you in trouble or seriously hurt.
    Most clubs that are any good have, at least once a week a practice race specifically for learning how to get better. Once you have a feel for "racing speed", things will slow down for you as you look at the race from your bike, things will make sense, and you will be more relaxed. If you just hop on the bike and go race, you might not enjoy it as much.
    Cycling's no different than any other sport..you have to learn how to do it to have any chance to do it well.
    Last edited by roadwarrior; 01-16-04 at 09:48 AM.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

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    Lance Hater Laggard's Avatar
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    Crashes

    Sorry to change the subject but I didn't want to start a brand new thread.

    I quit racing because I was too close to a few too many crashes and somehow developed a phobia that I was never able to get rid of. Racing became something that I feared rather than enjoyed. I really wish it didn't have to be that way.

    Any similar experiences?

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    Just ride. roadbuzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by croger152003
    I was also curious to find out what the shortest amount of time it has taken someone to go from cat 5 to cat 1.
    Well, in Greg LeMond's day, cat 4 was the lowest class, so who can say? I'd guess at least 2 or 3 years. Where can you find the age of the youngest cat 1s?

    Speaking as a recreational cyclist that races occasionally, as roadwarrior indicated, you don't get to be a cat 1 just with hard work... you also have to choose your parents carefully. Whenever I talk to a cat 1 or 2 about their training programs, I come away thinking "how many years would I have to train, just to be able to train at that level?" (Not like it could ever happen in any case.) But I digress.... not what you asked.

    Whatever your aspirations, good luck! The only way to learn your limits is to reach for them!!

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    Well, I guess I might be considered one of those guys who flies throught the ranks. BTW: I don't mean to brag by any of this, just to use myself as an example I guess... so I appologize if it comes off that way.

    I started racing at 16 with no background in other sports. I didn't train very much in the off season either. I upgraded from CAT 5 to CAT 2 in under two years while my racing age was still 17. I don't think I could have done that much faster, because you need to be in a certain number of races before you can upgrade -- and that takes time.

    My plan was to upgrade to CAT 1 last season (when my age was 17/18), but I was hit my a car early in the year and broke my arm. I didn't really get my fitness back untill the end of the season, and didn't have the opportunity to gain enough points for the upgrade. I did get some though.

    This winter I finished going through puberty and my body has matured a whole lot, so I think I'm going to be stronger than I was in past seasons. I'm hoping to get that CAT 1 upgrade before my 19th birthday at the end of March. I'd like to be a CAT 1 while still 18.

    I disagree with the notion that you need a lot of talent to get to CAT 1. To get on a division one pro outfit, yes, but a CAT 1? Although it's certainly easier to do so if you've the got the genetic advantage, I think that through hard work and grit, it's achievable by most (...I'll admit, not all) people if they have the time to put into it. That said, it takes most people (from those that I know) at least five years to get to CAT 1 -- but I suppose theoretically it's possible to do in about 2 1/2 seasons.

    Roadwarrior: It seemed like you suggested that CAT 1's and 2's were professionals -- like minor league baseball -- and that they are getting paid in some way. This certainly isn't the case. I don't know a single 1 or 2 who gets paid. True, many of us get euipment, clothing and race fees supplied -- but we are still not professional in the sense that we don't get paid a wage.

    - Maurizio

    Edit: The youngest CAT 1 I've ever known was 17. He had been racing since 12 however, and a lot of the reason he could upgrade so young was because he has an INCREDIBLE sprint. A good sprint makes getting those points much easier -- -if you're like me, and don't have a hot finishing kick, then you need to be a lot stronger and agressive to compensate.

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    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maurizio
    Well, I guess I might be considered one of those guys who flies throught the ranks. BTW: I don't mean to brag by any of this, just to use myself as an example I guess... so I appologize if it comes off that way.

    I started racing at 16 with no background in other sports. I didn't train very much in the off season either. I upgraded from CAT 5 to CAT 2 in under two years while my racing age was still 17. I don't think I could have done that much faster, because you need to be in a certain number of races before you can upgrade -- and that takes time.

    My plan was to upgrade to CAT 1 last season (when my age was 17/18), but I was hit my a car early in the year and broke my arm. I didn't really get my fitness back untill the end of the season, and didn't have the opportunity to gain enough points for the upgrade. I did get some though.

    This winter I finished going through puberty and my body has matured a whole lot, so I think I'm going to be stronger than I was in past seasons. I'm hoping to get that CAT 1 upgrade before my 19th birthday at the end of March. I'd like to be a CAT 1 while still 18.

    I disagree with the notion that you need a lot of talent to get to CAT 1. To get on a division one pro outfit, yes, but a CAT 1? Although it's certainly easier to do so if you've the got the genetic advantage, I think that through hard work and grit, it's achievable by most (...I'll admit, not all) people if they have the time to put into it. That said, it takes most people (from those that I know) at least five years to get to CAT 1 -- but I suppose theoretically it's possible to do in about 2 1/2 seasons.

    Roadwarrior: It seemed like you suggested that CAT 1's and 2's were professionals -- like minor league baseball -- and that they are getting paid in some way. This certainly isn't the case. I don't know a single 1 or 2 who gets paid. True, many of us get euipment, clothing and race fees supplied -- but we are still not professional in the sense that we don't get paid a wage.

    - Maurizio

    Edit: The youngest CAT 1 I've ever known was 17. He had been racing since 12 however, and a lot of the reason he could upgrade so young was because he has an INCREDIBLE sprint. A good sprint makes getting those points much easier -- -if you're like me, and don't have a hot finishing kick, then you need to be a lot stronger and agressive to compensate.
    I said most CAT I's are getting paid in some fashion. Receiving equipment, clothing, fees is getting paid in some fashion. See my first post. Right at the top.

    A professional in the eyes of USA Cycling, which also partially defines an "elite" rider is a registered rider on a UCI Trade Team. Navigators is the only (as of right now) division II team from the US and I am still looking for a list of the division III teams with all the teams that went out of business last season. All trade team riders are considered "elite".

    I did not say CAT II's were professionals. I said the opposite. In fact, most do not get what you are getting, but typically do receive some stipend (like maybe a free bike and discounts from sponsors).

    I used analogies to help some understand the levels based on other sports.

    As far as moving up..think of it another way. We typically have 30-40 racers in a CAT III race. To move up, you have to accumulate 30 points in 12 months. They only award points for the top six places (7-5-4-3-2-1). In places like where you and I live, the racing season is basically the first weekend in April to about Halloween. If we start 35 racers on average, that means that only 17 percent (if I can still add and subtract) of the riders are getting points. You pretty much have to finish sixth or better every week on a III race to move up to II. That's not easy for most.

    When you are 25 or 30 with a job and a family, it will not seem so easy. At 17, you can train all day. A CAT II with a management job like I had was tough.
    Last edited by roadwarrior; 01-17-04 at 03:14 AM.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

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    I fortunately will have whatever time I need to train as I am recieving 15k-20k just to train and race. I also will be recieving my bike of choice. My father has his own production company and produces a few tv shows and knows many of the people in the bike world who sponsor people, my father does a big bike ride every year that is nationally televised and the bike companies love working with him as it is usually for a good cause and is great publicity for the companies. So assuming that I have all the time and resources that I would possibly need is it feasable to say that I would be able to be at least cat3 by years end?

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior
    Did they catch the person???
    Man, I'd nail her to the wall...
    I did find her and I even gave the info to the officer who was investigating the accident, however the officer has not done anything with the case has not investigated or anything. So I am in the process of contacting internal affairs, as it has been three months of me calling pretty much nonstop to get them to do something. Kinda scary too seeing as how I was laying on the side of the road going into hyperthermia and had to be transported by ambulance to the hospital. Even if they do ticket her its only a $60 ticket anyways...Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggard
    Sorry to change the subject but I didn't want to start a brand new thread.

    I quit racing because I was too close to a few too many crashes and somehow developed a phobia that I was never able to get rid of. Racing became something that I feared rather than enjoyed. I really wish it didn't have to be that way.

    Any similar experiences?
    I have had something similar I have been hit three times by automobiles. Honestly I dont look at pain and alot of things the same way as most people so when I got hit it was not a matter of if I would keep riding but a matter of when I could. It was not that the pain was so bad but the fact I had to fix my bike that kept me from riding. Once my bike was fixed I was still having major issues with pain but I could not bare being off my bike for so long. I would rather wreck horribly than to not let my DREAMS of being able to ride professionaly some day be ruined. I live by this saying from braveheart "Everyman dies, not everyman really lives." It has helped me deal with the naysayers and the possible inhibitions I may have about anything in my life. I know I am going to die probably sooner than most as I am diabetic but I will not even let that be something that will keep me from doing what I want to do with my life ( I used to let it effect everything I did I used to feel sorry for my self but never again). Alot of people in this forum seem to hate LA but has anyone read his book? I did and it changed the way I look at my disease, I cant change what I have I can only push through the pain I feel most days and chase my dream. sorry I kind of went a little far with this post but I hope it helped.

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    might i suggest that you not worry about how long it takes to move up the ranks. rather, i think it'd be wise to concentrate on having as much fun as you can while doing so.
    i ride bikes.

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    Iím sure this is a pretty dumb question, but are there age groups within the categories? I know that in a local criterium series their isnít but itís more of a pre season training aid than all out races as far as I know. However, the Seat Otter Classic, which I intend to ride has a Junior Men 15-16 and 17-18 (I fall into the latter). Is this an exception, or are the races usually set up in age groupings along with categories? If so, anyone have any experience (perhaps Maurizio?) with the speeds of the juniors? I canít think of ever meeting any rider under their mid 20ís around here, so I have nothing to compare myself to age-wise.

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    There are no age groupings within Category races (5, 4, 3, Pro-1-2) for the most part, but in adition to having Category races, a race venue may have other races for age specific (rather than category specific) riders.

    For example: A race might have a 5, 4, 3, Pro-1-2, Junior 15-16, Junior 17-18, Masters 35+, and Masters 45+. In the Junior races, it doesn't matter what category you are, as long as participants fall into the specified age grouping. So very often the skill levels in Junior races is VERY diverse, ranging from the rarish Cat1 and 2 kids (often though, these kids don't bother with junior races, and will race their category instead), all the way down to kids who are Cat 5's and have hardly raced.

    The average speed in junior races tends to be deceptive in terms of it's reflection of the actual difficulty of the race. Since juniors tend to be fool-hardy and very agressive -- in addition to being not as willing to do work on the front -- the speeds in Junior races often fluctuate much more than in other events making for lowish average speeds but tough crunch points.

    The difficulty will also depend on WHICH junior race you're talking about. Most junior races are comperable in speed to a Cat 4 race, but in case you weren't aware, Sea Otter is used as a means for selecting the Junior Worlds Team -- meaning that all the strongest kids who are vying for a chance to go to the world championships will be there. The field will also be much larger than most other junior races. The difficulty and intensity at that race in the 17-18 field may be pretty close to that of a Pro-1-2 race (not totally sure about this since I didn't do Sea Otter last year, but Fitchburg, which was a worlds qualifier also, was pretty tough last year), and similar to what you would find at Junior Nationals.

    Hope that helped.

    - Maurizio

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    Right now Iím looking mainly at the road race, but the circuit race could be a possibility depending on my experiences earlier in the year. Looking at the 2002 results there were 32 riders with a range of times. And from a message I read from one of the riders he said it was pretty obvious who were the in the top 10 or so based on the first climb. Obviously Iíll need to get some racing under my belt before I can assess where I generally fall, but Iím just wondering what your opinion is of a moderately new racer entering in the road race? Would junior be the way to go, or just try my hand at whatever category ranking Iím at? Thanks for your help, all of this is pretty new to me.

  23. #23
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by croger152003
    I fortunately will have whatever time I need to train as I am recieving 15k-20k just to train and race. I also will be recieving my bike of choice. My father has his own production company and produces a few tv shows and knows many of the people in the bike world who sponsor people, my father does a big bike ride every year that is nationally televised and the bike companies love working with him as it is usually for a good cause and is great publicity for the companies. So assuming that I have all the time and resources that I would possibly need is it feasable to say that I would be able to be at least cat3 by years end?
    croger...they assign points to the top six spots with 7 to the winner, then 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 point to sixth place. It takes 20 points in 12 months to move up...OR you can have 25 races with a minimum of 10 top tens to move up, so yeah, with the time you have you can move up in one season. If you get 30 points in 12 months, it's an automatic move up.
    These have to be USCF qualifying races...so make sure if you pick a race it is certified by them.

    BTW, if you want a good look at pro cycling in the United States try a DVD you can get via Velonews, Velogear store called "The Hard Road". It's like $25, and well worth it.

    Croger, getting what you are getting to train and race is about twice what these pros get as a living.
    Last edited by roadwarrior; 01-17-04 at 03:38 AM.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  24. #24
    Just ride. roadbuzz's Avatar
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    Croger, given what you've said, it sounds like you have a lot of cards stacked in your favor. Sounds like you should get a coach... not just an email account with some guy who sends you a training schedule, and, remember, you can't rush results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by croger152003
    Alot of people in this forum seem to hate LA but has anyone read his book? I did and it changed the way I look at my disease,
    Same here, totally.
    I wish the best for you.

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