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  1. #1
    Munchin' and rollin' chuongdoan's Avatar
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    Lapping the field?

    Say you take off and the field decides not to chase and you end up lapping them. Can you just sit in and enjoy the ride in to the finish and collect your cash?

    And if you come around them, what happens if some riders come along?

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    CPM M4 BananaTugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuongdoan View Post
    Say you take off and the field decides not to chase and you end up lapping them. Can you just sit in and enjoy the ride in to the finish and collect your cash?

    And if you come around them, what happens if some riders come along?
    Drop them and do it again if you can.

    If the stupid wanks let you get away once, why not give them another chance?
    Ten tenths.

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    Cat3.*....Cat2 asmallsol's Avatar
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    (Not 100% sure on this one but)

    nope, your not allowed to draft off of lapped riders because that would be giving you an advantage vs anyone trying to chase you. Once you'd latch on to the main field you are allowed to go to the front and have them pull you.

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    Burning Matches. ElJamoquio's Avatar
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    Catching the pack and drafting is AOK. If you're in a solo break, enjoy your easy ride to the win. I suggest staying towards the front.
    Last edited by ElJamoquio; 07-14-08 at 09:02 PM.
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  5. #5
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmallsol View Post
    (Not 100% sure on this one but)

    nope, your not allowed to draft off of lapped riders because that would be giving you an advantage vs anyone trying to chase you. Once you'd latch on to the main field you are allowed to go to the front and have them pull you.
    I don't believe that is correct. I've seen several races where the riders have lapped the field and then just sat on the back of the back for the win. You can't work with/draft off riders from other races (races you didn't start with), but there is nothing as far as I know that prevents you working with others from your own race that are not on the same lap. Edit: they were breaks of several people that lapped the field, not solo riders, if that makes any difference.

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    Mmmmm Donuts! FatguyRacer's Avatar
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    1. yes

    2. 2nd, 3rd, 4th place, etc. If they feel inclined they can drop you to stay on the lead lap or even try to unlap themselves, but really all they have to do is stay ahead of you to not have to end up in a field sprint. Say 3 guys take off and stay ahead of you up to the bell lap. At the finale, you've won and every else is sprinting for 5th place (even if your in the field) while those three guys come in behind the field for 2, 3 and 4th.

    The big no no is dropping back to help. IE, A teamate in the bunch cant slow down and wait for you and help you up to the field. If you see a teamate OTB of a field your trying to catch from behind, avoid him like the plague. Working with him will get you DQ'ed.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmallsol View Post
    (Not 100% sure on this one but)

    nope, your not allowed to draft off of lapped riders because that would be giving you an advantage vs anyone trying to chase you. Once you'd latch on to the main field you are allowed to go to the front and have them pull you.
    In this context, how are you defining lapped riders vs. main field?

    In the races around here, if you aren't part of the main field, you get pulled (Cat4/5) or you voluntarily withdraw (Cat1/2 or 3).

    In a lot the crits that I do, a break will lap the field. When they are about to lap the field, our team manager will get on the radio, and whoever is in the main field will split into two groups. The first group will stay at the front to keep the pace steady, if not slow it down. The second group will make their way to the back, search out the teammate(s) doing the lapping, and pull them up through the field.

    So, yes, you are allowed to draft off of the main field, whether at the back or the front.
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    Cat3.*....Cat2 asmallsol's Avatar
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    hmm, interesting. The reason for my answer was at the Tour of Grandview the 2nd day, for the master race with a really small feild, there were 3 strong riders and about 7 slow guys. The 3 guys broke into 1 solo leader and 2 chasers. The solo leader cought the struggling main group, and the announcer giving his "info of racing" over the PA said that he could not draft off them because the 2 chasers would not have that advantage. Maybe he was just wrong.

  9. #9
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmallsol View Post
    hmm, interesting. The reason for my answer was at the Tour of Grandview the 2nd day, for the master race with a really small feild, there were 3 strong riders and about 7 slow guys. The 3 guys broke into 1 solo leader and 2 chasers. The solo leader cought the struggling main group, and the announcer giving his "info of racing" over the PA said that he could not draft off them because the 2 chasers would not have that advantage. Maybe he was just wrong.
    If they were slower, it would not be much of an advantage. I would think the chasers would be going faster than the pack of 7 and therefore would eventually catch the leader if he sat in with them.

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    Munchin' and rollin' chuongdoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaTugger View Post
    Drop them and do it again if you can.

    If the stupid wanks let you get away once, why not give them another chance?
    I like your attitude!
    Man it has got to get confusing for the scorers when a several people in a group lap the main field with a few chasers in tow.

  11. #11
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Did they change a rule?
    I've seen breakaways lap the field and attack again taking lapped riders with them.
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    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    It's quite clear in the rules, and FatGuyRacer seems to be the only who read them.

    3D4. Riders on different laps may work with each other
    except that no rider may drop back to assist a rider who has
    broken away from the field [disqualification for accepting such
    assistance].
    I find this one interesting, though, and never knew it existed.
    3D7. Field finish option. If two or more riders have lapped,
    or are about to lap, a substantial group of riders, the Chief
    Referee may direct all lapped riders to sprint early, usually
    two to four laps before the end of the race, then retire. The
    decision to do this shall be communicated to the riders
    several laps in advance of the sprint. No continuing rider may
    take pace from a rider who has finished [disqualification or
    relegation for both riders].

  13. #13
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
    It's quite clear in the rules, and FatGuyRacer seems to be the only who read them.



    I find this one interesting, though, and never knew it existed.
    Oh I'm well aware of the rule.

    The interpretation of the rule is what matters.

    How do you define dropping back?

    Is that going to the back of the field, or is that falling off the back of the field in an attempt to pull the rider across the gap?

    I'm of the opinion that the former is OK, but the second is against the rules.
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  14. #14
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    That second rule is pretty standard. I've seen it a lot as an announcer AND racer. But without clear communications, it can get ugly.

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    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    Dang, I thought bike racing involved pedaling fast and not crashing. It's sounding more like the income tax now.
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    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenH View Post
    Dang, I thought bike racing involved pedaling fast and not crashing. It's sounding more like the income tax now.
    In Cat 5 races and time trials, that's about all there is to it. Anybody who has won more prestigious races knows that pedaling fast is nothing more than the basic requirement to be at the starting line.

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    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    Is that going to the back of the field, or is that falling off the back of the field in an attempt to pull the rider across the gap?

    I'm of the opinion that the former is OK, but the second is against the rules.
    That's pretty much the interpretation that I would expect-- if you're more than about a wheel back from the back you'll probably get in trouble. If you're in the pack at the back you're fine.


    When it gets interesting is when it's a small field and blown to bits-- it gets hard to tell where the pack is. There's a rule for determining that, too....
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  18. #18
    Senior Member ken cummings's Avatar
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    I did that lap thing once in the US Army. Lapped everyone else on the annual 1 mile run on a 3 lap course. Why is this cycling related? I was the only cyclist on the base and rode a lot. No one else ever jogged or ran. One guy tried to stay with me for a lap and I caught him anyway. If someone in the lapped field had stayed with me they still would have failed the annual required fitness test run. It took me 7'30" and everyone else on the base was given the time of 7'59" so we would not have to start a fitness program.
    This space open

  19. #19
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    Oh I'm well aware of the rule.

    The interpretation of the rule is what matters.

    How do you define dropping back?

    Is that going to the back of the field, or is that falling off the back of the field in an attempt to pull the rider across the gap?

    I'm of the opinion that the former is OK, but the second is against the rules.
    I agree with that. I thought somewhere out there is a definition of what constitutes finishing with the pack and what is "off the back" (i.e. 10m behind the last rider in the pack) so I would expect that to be applied here as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ken cummings View Post
    I did that lap thing once in the US Army. Lapped everyone else on the annual 1 mile run on a 3 lap course. Why is this cycling related? I was the only cyclist on the base and rode a lot. No one else ever jogged or ran. One guy tried to stay with me for a lap and I caught him anyway. If someone in the lapped field had stayed with me they still would have failed the annual required fitness test run. It took me 7'30" and everyone else on the base was given the time of 7'59" so we would not have to start a fitness program.
    That still disturbs me. 8 minutes is not a hard time to run the mile in. I did it with asthma and sever stomach cramps.

  20. #20
    Mmmmm Donuts! FatguyRacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
    It's quite clear in the rules, and FatGuyRacer seems to be the only who read them.



    I find this one interesting, though, and never knew it existed.
    I have to know the rule. IR a zebra.

    3D7 has been used a couple times in races I have been a moto on. It almost got used at the SoMD crit in the 123 race to avoid an occurance of rule 3D4. In that race, the main field got word that the break was catching them, and they started to slow considerably. There was a chase group between them and the break. The break had strong teamates in the main field and the break had several different teams. The concern was that there were guys in the main field intentionally slowing the pace so they could help their teamates once they caught up. Moto1 warned the field against doing this, since it was pretty obvious to everybody what was going on, and they uppped the pace. The break never caught the field (they slowed, but probably not on purpose) but the chase group caught them with 1/2 lap to go. Gotta watch these guys like a hawk.


    Cast Iron - If your reading this, this is one of the reasons there are motors in Crits.
    Last edited by FatguyRacer; 07-15-08 at 05:45 AM.
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  21. #21
    NeoRetroGrouch
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatguyRacer View Post
    I have to know the rule. IR a zebra.

    3D7 has been used a couple times in races I have been a moto on. It almost got used at the SoMD crit in the 123 race to avoid an occurance of rule 3D4. In that race, the main field got word that the break was catching them, and they started to slow considerably. There was a chase group between them and the break. The break had strong teamates in the main field and the break had several different teams. The concern was that there were guys in the main field intentionally slowing the pace so they could help their teamates once they caught up. Moto1 warned the field against doing this, since it was pretty obvious to everybody what was going on, and they uppped the pace. The break never caught the field (they slowed, but probably not on purpose) but the chase group caught them with 1/2 lap to go. Gotta watch these guys like a hawk.


    Cast Iron - If your reading this, this is one of the reasons there are motors in Crits.
    If it was for the reason you say, it seems like a bad call to me. 3D4 says you cannot drop off the back to help. No one was doing that. I see no reason that the pack cannot wait for the lead group and then speed up. It would be up to the teams without riders in the lead group to keep them from catching up. - TF

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    what DoK said. not sure how this specifically applies to the rules, but his team's strategy is prevailing one.

    this year at CSC Invitational, there was a break of ~12 riders including backstedt (garmin), hammonds (columbia), local strong man russ langley (battley harley), and reps from colavita, and other teams except csc and rock racing. the break was gaining on the field and it became obvious that it was going to catch/lap it. at that point servais knaven (columbia), 2 colavita guys, a battley harley guy (ryan dewald), and others that had representation in the break drifted back, and the pace obviously slowed down from single file to bunching around corners. when the groups integrated, they taxied the breakaway riders through the bunch to the front.

    Although the field stayed integrated, their intentions and execution were obvious. no rule infractions called. I was wondering how the rules would or could have been applied ... this wasnt local industrial park crit, this was an NRC event with representation from protour teams with winners of protour events so I cant imagine anyone on the official level missed anything.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatguyRacer View Post
    I have to know the rule. IR a zebra.

    3D7 has been used a couple times in races I have been a moto on. It almost got used at the SoMD crit in the 123 race to avoid an occurance of rule 3D4. In that race, the main field got word that the break was catching them, and they started to slow considerably. There was a chase group between them and the break. The break had strong teamates in the main field and the break had several different teams. The concern was that there were guys in the main field intentionally slowing the pace so they could help their teamates once they caught up. Moto1 warned the field against doing this, since it was pretty obvious to everybody what was going on, and they uppped the pace. The break never caught the field (they slowed, but probably not on purpose) but the chase group caught them with 1/2 lap to go. Gotta watch these guys like a hawk.


    Cast Iron - If your reading this, this is one of the reasons there are motors in Crits.
    Sorry, but there is no rule against "slowing the field" by blocking or simply taking horses off the front. The officials were in the wrong, and very much so.

    Every time a break is about to lap at an NRC race, the same thing happens. You'd think the officials there would be more knowledgeable than the local zebras...but maybe USA Cycling has it all wrong, and you guys should be the ones in charge instead.

    And, they do the exact same thing in Australia, where they're using UCI rules.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatguyRacer View Post
    I have to know the rule. IR a zebra.

    3D7 has been used a couple times in races I have been a moto on.
    I'm pretty new to watching racing, so it was interesting to see 3D7 used at the recent Masters Nationals. I can't remember what age category it was, but the race had broken into three groups. A few guys(might have been three)* as the main break, a dozen or so as a chase, and then the peleton. Because the course was an oval only a little more than .5 miles long, the peleton(probably 60% of the field) was going to really impact the race. The officials ended up having the pack sprint with a good number of laps left -- 15 or 20. Seemed difficult to coordinate and seemed like a few people were not too happy with the decision.

    *Details as best as I remember, as it was a full day of crits.

  25. #25
    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTurtle View Post
    If it was for the reason you say, it seems like a bad call to me. 3D4 says you cannot drop off the back to help. No one was doing that. I see no reason that the pack cannot wait for the lead group and then speed up. It would be up to the teams without riders in the lead group to keep them from catching up. - TF
    Indeed-- in a track race where there are heats to qualify for a final this is a tactic. If there are more guys off the front than advance to the final and you're not one of them, it's in your interest to slow and let them take the lap asap. Some of them are going to go again and you go with them to get on even laps with the people who are up one.
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