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Old 07-17-08, 09:40 AM   #1
merlinextraligh
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Ban teams, Directors, and owners for repeated positives

As the Ricco situation makes clear, the dopers will always be looking for the next new non detectible drug. And the nature of the game makes it likely that the dopers will always be a step ahead of the testers.

However its difficult to believe that there could be significant doping on a 3 week grand tour, without fellow riders, support staff, and directors knowing about it. You just can't travel,and live in that close of proximity for 3 weeks without people picking up on things IF THEY HAVE THE INCENTIVE TO BE LOOKING.

The Team Organizers, and fellow riders are the people in the position to stop this. The rules need to give them the incentive to do so.

Until and unless Team Management feels the pain this sh*t will continue.
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Old 07-17-08, 09:58 AM   #2
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Bio passports are the answer.... Just wait
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Old 07-17-08, 10:01 AM   #3
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I agree. Any manager with a rider caught doping is immediately suspended. 2 different riders caught, full team suspension. Fellow riders then have an incentive to police as well as offences negatively impact them. I am not normally a fan of such rules, but if cycling wants to get serious, it does have to go after the enablers, not just the riders who are doping.

It needs to be a well-written code, however. Leaving it up to race organizers is a pretty crappy way to do it. Astana doesn't get invited to the Tour despite all new management while other teams with a history of doping offences do get the invite. I would actually be fine with the Astana exclusion if there were any consistency.
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Old 07-17-08, 10:11 AM   #4
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I've alway felt that what the sport needs is a complete mia culpa. The UCI should offer a one time amnesty to the riders....fess up...completely...name the suppliers...the doctors...the DS's. Do this and there will be no repercussions...no punitive measures. Next positive test and you are banned for life. The big issue is that these riders are not doping in a vacuum. They have help. Honestly I imagine this conversation after Lance beat Basso in the Tour:

Riis: Ivan, if you want to beat this man and win the Tour you need help....I can't just coach you to a Tour win...I know people who can get you what you need....I will support you in this...

Ivan: Yes I will take your help...

Seriously the thought that most of these DS's are not involved, either through direct pressure or through direct supply is ludicrous. These guys just didn't learn how to dope by using the Google.
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Old 07-17-08, 10:16 AM   #5
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And to add...

With regards to the event that the team is currently racing in, if one man gets caught the entire team should be disqualified. That in itself would help.

In the Saunier Duval case, I believe the entire team volunteered their own departure. It should have been mandatory. Seems like one of the other positives was from Barlo and they are still there.
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Old 07-17-08, 10:17 AM   #6
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+1
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Old 07-17-08, 10:24 AM   #7
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Bio passports are the answer.... Just wait
yep.
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Old 07-17-08, 10:45 AM   #8
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And to add...

With regards to the event that the team is currently racing in, if one man gets caught the entire team should be disqualified. That in itself would help.
I agree. even if the entire team isn't helping and its just one rider going to a shady doctor somewhere, it will make him think twice about injecting knowing his actions could distroy their entire teams future.
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Old 07-17-08, 10:56 AM   #9
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They shouldn't be mandated to leave, however they should all be tested for same substances.
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Old 07-17-08, 10:58 AM   #10
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If any rider tests positive, the entire team is banned from all events for the remainder of the season.
You wanna get serious, get serious, otherwise it's just posturing.
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Old 07-17-08, 11:05 AM   #11
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I think you should lose your job and go to jail if your kid gets caught shoplifting...
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Old 07-17-08, 11:28 AM   #12
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Don't even make them leave. Just make the offender wear a hot pink jersey with no sponsors that says "DOPER" and make them lead the parade, handing out pamphlets describing how the sport is trying to clean itself up.
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Old 07-17-08, 11:44 AM   #13
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Don't even make them leave. Just make the offender wear a hot pink jersey with no sponsors that says "DOPER" and make them lead the parade, handing out pamphlets describing how the sport is trying to clean itself up.
Ahh, shaming! I like it.
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Old 07-17-08, 11:45 AM   #14
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I think you should lose your job and go to jail if your kid gets caught shoplifting...
F that, you should be crucified, and the rest of your family burned, you bleeding-heart liberal wussy.
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Old 07-17-08, 11:46 AM   #15
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Don't even make them leave. Just make the offender wear a hot pink jersey with no sponsors that says "DOPER" and make them lead the parade, handing out pamphlets describing how the sport is trying to clean itself up.
Can't we at least lop off a limb?

Whoa, I just had a brain storm...(now I've shot my wad for this century).
What if, besides the pink jersey, the rest of the team and the management has to wear yellow jerseys that say "I'M WITH DOPER" ?

I am a fracking evil genius...you had a good idea too, but it needed a lil chippie magic to round it out.
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Old 07-17-08, 11:49 AM   #16
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Why make 'em more comfortable on the saddle?

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Can't we at least lop off a limb?
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Old 07-17-08, 11:52 AM   #17
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Can't we at least lop off a limb?
Maybe just the tip of the index or middle fingers on the right hand to make it a little harder to shift when they come back to racing. One missed shift at a crucial moment would serve as a reminder of what they'd done.
My original thought was a ceremonial execution preceding the begining of the next stage, but that seemed a little harsh.
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Old 07-17-08, 11:54 AM   #18
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My original thought was a ceremonial execution preceding the begining of the next stage, but that seemed a little harsh.
But think of the TV ratings! BRILLIANT!
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Old 07-17-08, 12:01 PM   #19
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Maybe just the tip of the index or middle fingers on the right hand to make it a little harder to shift when they come back to racing. One missed shift at a crucial moment would serve as a reminder of what they'd done.
My original thought was a ceremonial execution preceding the begining of the next stage, but that seemed a little harsh
.
Done with bladed spokes.
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Old 07-17-08, 03:47 PM   #20
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I actually thought that the initial ideas in this thread were good - the other ideas, while funny - aren't really reality based. At least, not "their" reality.
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Old 07-17-08, 04:18 PM   #21
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I agree. even if the entire team isn't helping and its just one rider going to a shady doctor somewhere, it will make him think twice about injecting knowing his actions could distroy their entire teams future.
Negative. The consequences will continue to be irrelevant as long as they believe they won't be caught. Better testing is the only answer. The death penalty isn't stopping people from killing each other. If there is a 99% probability of being caught even a one year ban will suffice. If the probability is 10% you could threaten to hang their entire family and somebody would still risk it.
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Old 07-17-08, 05:45 PM   #22
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Negative. The consequences will continue to be irrelevant as long as they believe they won't be caught. Better testing is the only answer. The death penalty isn't stopping people from killing each other. If there is a 99% probability of being caught even a one year ban will suffice. If the probability is 10% you could threaten to hang their entire family and somebody would still risk it.
i concur. the only proven deterent to crime is the certainty of being caught.
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Old 07-17-08, 05:49 PM   #23
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Maybe just the tip of the index or middle fingers on the right hand to make it a little harder to shift when they come back to racing. One missed shift at a crucial moment would serve as a reminder of what they'd done.
My original thought was a ceremonial execution preceding the begining of the next stage, but that seemed a little harsh.
nah. save all the offenders for the last stage. guillotine 'em after the sprint on the champs elysees. you can do it on the place de la concorde like in the old days. the more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?
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Old 07-17-08, 08:03 PM   #24
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Negative. The consequences will continue to be irrelevant as long as they believe they won't be caught. Better testing is the only answer. The death penalty isn't stopping people from killing each other. If there is a 99% probability of being caught even a one year ban will suffice. If the probability is 10% you could threaten to hang their entire family and somebody would still risk it.
Effectiveness of any deterrent depends on certainty,severity,and swiftness. The death penalty as currently administered lacks 2 of 3.

My proposal to punish all the enablers, relies on the time honored principle of giving conspirators a motive to roll. As long as the co conspirators, and the enabelers are placed at risk, they have a much greater motive to roll, and or self police, thus greatly increasing the likelyhood of punishing the transgressor.

The problem with testing is that the cheats will always be one step ahead. Hence you need to rely on non testing avenues of detection, i.e. witnessing riders injecting, seeing them possessing bags of blood, getting deliveries of drugs, etc.

If the team personell is given the proper incentive, they can easily detect such behavior. Problem is the current system incents them to turn a blind eye.
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Old 07-17-08, 08:27 PM   #25
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^^What he said.
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