currand

When you start ramping up the tempo and threshold, what progression of intervals and reps do you use? As an example I've seen 3x5, 4x5, 5x5, 3x10, 4x10, 3x15, 4x15, 2x20 for threshold. And the second question is; Is it worth doing tempo intervals after you've started doing threshold? Will one "drag" the other up?

I know at points in my training I've done 1 and 2 hours at tempo but that seems to be a different adaptation than a 2x20.

waterrockets 

You should vary it. Pulling threshold up is just as effective as pushing it up. One consideration is that the lower intensity intervals allow you do train harder the next day.

The way I do it, I just ride SST constantly, letting up only for lights or to let a training partner find my draft again. At the start of a build, I'm only able to hold ~280W (normalized power) for an hour or so. It builds fast, and after 8 weeks or so, I'm up to ~320W. So, this is mostly a "push up" model, but it works really well for me.

NomadVW 

Depends on at what intensity you define "tempo." Many people I've talked to think "tempo" is much easier than what I think of as "tempo." I've had success doing 90-120 min @ ~90-91% FTP (heart rate avg's ~167-168, peaking at the end ~171-172 with a LTHR of 175-177)

I personally don't find any need to do less than 20 min intervals. If I was going to do anything, I'd ramp the intensity, not the time. (Eg, 2x20 @ 87-88%, then 89-90 then 91-93, etc... ) Especially if you've done them before. I continue to find it better to work lower and longer ( eg, I'd recommend 3-4x20's @ 85, then 3x20's @ 91, then 2x20's at 98-100 if I was going to recommend anything )

I honestly enjoy 3x20's @ 91-93%.

gsteinb

I might love you.

waterrockets 

Yeah, I think this is my problem with 20m intervals. I was pretty much shooting for 100% on all of them. I wouldn't usually hit it on the 2nd one.

It turns out that that 91-93% is on the upper end of where I ride my 60-80 minute SST rides. And yes, it is enjoyable.

I guess that explains why I was getting more benefit out of SST than 2x20s. My 20s were just too hard. It's tough to do a 20m interval at 320W, when I know I'm capable of 355W. I need to let that go... or just keep doing my SST...

MrCrassic 

Today, I was doing "formalized" SST and found that I can hold a steady tempo at 85% MHR (fluctuating between 160 - 170 bpm). When I do this, I normally escalate up to it, and then try my best not to go over this. I know that I'm starting to go over when I begin to go anaerobic and feel like I wouldn't be able to have a conversation anymore.

Tomorrow when I do intervals on a trainer, I'm going to try doing 2x20s at 90% MHR (165 - 175 bpm). I'm unsure if this is too low, though.

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NomadVW 

Yeah. The problem with 2x20's at 100% is that if you're not fresh, the second one will probably be pretty rough. On the second day of the training week yesterday, I got the first one @ 361 pretty easily, but the second was 10 watts lower and extremely hard. It was a brutal ~20 mile commute back home after the intervals.

The other thing I find with the 91-93% range is that course isn't as much a determining factor. On 2x20's @ 100%, if you have a course with corners or traffic, it doesn't take much to get you out of the rhythm and drop below target wattage, because in order to "make up" for the off the pedal time you're working above threshold.

But when you're running the upper end of SST, you can come off the pedals for a few seconds to avoid traffic/negotiate the traffic/drink water, bump it back up to threshold to get back into the groove and settle back down again and still make target wattage.

waterrockets 

Yeah, that sounds consistent with my experience. I'll give the easier 2x20s a try when the time comes.

MrCrassic 

That's why I'm starting to really like SST. When I was hammering yesterday on the hard ends of my commute, it was really easy to get knocked off of target from red lights, traffic, etc. It's also much much more difficult to get back into that range, at least with the same power output. Though yesterday, I used perceived effort (and I was going pretty hard and was anaerobic for most of the time, so I would guess that I was OVER my LT and within 95% of MHR).

With SST, I found that my pace is set my heart beat, so if I run into traffic or have to stop for some reason, I can work back up to that range and stay there, not letting go of target.

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MDcatV

how much variability do you have (outside the 91%-93% range) riding in the NoVA/WDC area?

Although not hilly, always rolling. I'm much better at pacing than I was this time last year. Although I end up within the target range I'm looking for, I still find myself with much variability in %FTP effort simply due to terrain.

Apus^2

I'm liking this thread. I started 2x20s and 1x40s and am about to move to 3x20s but I've been unsure of where to aim. I have to try and make my base training as efficient as possible as I have a new member of the family arriving in about 9 days.

substructure

I've heard of TT'ers who are doing 2x30s @ 95% and 1x60 @ 95% in addition to the 2x20s.
Anyone else do these - or heard the same.

substructure

Congratulations on that.

NomadVW 

Haines Point on a good day, not bad - laps take ~7½-8 minutes on the road bike. This is about the only place I can get a real 2x20 session in. I did them yesterday afternoon there, and it wasn't bad. Summer season with tour bus time is straight out.

I can do 3x20's on Ox Road/Rt 123, basically the stretch from George Mason/Braddock Road south to the Occoquan. It's generally long/gradual down to the Occoquan, and vice versa on the way back. I can pretty much peg it @330-350, occasionally diverted for traffic/red lights (I'll hang a right with traffic and U-turn as soon as safe)

It's definitely much harder here in the NoVA area than it was in Japan where I could count on country roads going generally uphill for 90-120 minutes without stop lights.

Actually, I find it harder to really nail the longer (90-120 min) sessions because of this. The constant up/down in the country or having to cross major highways gets really annoying.

NomadVW 

Very hard to find 60 min of road for 95% around the NoVA area, for sure. But it's on the goal list for December time frame.

ldesfor1@ithaca

I was one who was a 2x20 @100% guy last year (albiet much later in the season) and am quite interested in this thread, so thanks for starting it.

Often what I do when working above 88% to make those "dont want to get on the trainer!" days more palatable is this: I'd give myself a goal wattage and time lower than optimal, let's say 87% for 40'. then once i started rocking and rolling, I'd usually start feelin it around 10' in and end up with either 40" @ 91% as the legs opened up and often I'd just push through to 60+ minutes of SST. If not, then it wasnt meant to be and I suffered though 88% for the 40' minimum and still finished with a nice, "not wasted" WO.

------



I like the idea of more time at lower wattages, though... my query comes here: Is it "better" to do 2x20 @ 100% but only twice a week (giving us 80' @ 100%) or look towards something like 2x30 @ 90-94% twice a week (giving 120' @ 90-95%). I'm just trying to decern whether y'all feel like the 90-94% range should be just as effective at pushing up LT as really suffering at 100%. (this is more important durring th spring than now, when I'm not even thinking about structured work above 90%).


Thanks!
-L

Apus^2

Thanks!

jooaa

I think about this, too. Here's my experience over the past year. I've lived in a couple different places for months at a time. In one place, I have an uninterrupted hillclimb I can ride 20'@100% (awesome). Everywhere else, traffic and terrain leave me at 90-95%.

When I can do 100%, it kills me. These workouts are not 'fun', and require more recovery so my total hours for the week are lower. However, when I look back at my data, those are the times when I'm really seeing improvements. Power increases are much better when I'm doing 2x20@100% versus 3x20@lower%.

My plan for the next few weeks is to try get three hard workouts a week, one each at @95%, @100%, and @105%. Set the intensities there and fiddle with the duration/number of intervals so that I can come back for the next workout.

But, I'm really interested to see that other people are getting good results without beating themselves up so much. Good stuff.

j

edit: and congrats to anyone adding a family member

substructure

^^ Your's may have been planned. But, I - once again - was a little scared when my wife told me she was 'late.' I was selfishly thinking of all the progress I made this year, and what would happen 10 months down the road. I need to get fixed. If nothing more, than to protect the world from possibly another male like myself.

NomadVW 

Assuming the length of intervals is long enough to warrant threshold adaptation:
93% @ 120 min = 173 TSS of L4 work
100% @ 80 min = 120 TSS of L4 work

So, if you consider TSS as any measure of adaptation when comparing similar intensities (after all, 93-100% is usually "only" 15-25 watts), then TSS tells the story.

120 min @ 93% = bearable, however you're getting it (provided 20+ min at an interval)
2x20 @ 100% twice per week = I'm just not that mentally focused. Yuck

As an n=1, I find sufficient adaptation from 3x20's and SST. (~20-25 watts improvement this year on FTP).

Fat Boy

My big butt kicker workout is a pyramid at about 90% of Max HR (I don't have power). I do:

20 min on
5 in off
16 min on
4 min off
12 min on
3 min off
8 min on
puke

This sucks. No kiddin'. I like looking at the data once it's over, but it's something I basically have to psych myself up to do. Maybe I'll do it today. F-, I don't want to do that. It really does improve your endurance at a high power, though.

brett_beddow

Let me make sure of this...:
The percentages we are talking are at threshold not max HR correct?

MDcatV

^depends on which post you're asking about. I'm counting 3 different training methodologies being called the same thing here.

listen to nomad - he knows of what he speaks.

Apus^2 - congratulations, hope things go very healthy.

Fat Boy

My post was talking about max heart rate. I guess several others weren't. I'm lost by many of the power abbreviations being used.

Enthalpic

Big +1.

"Honest" tempo is a great workout... aka SST.