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  1. #2601
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aham23 View Post
    ^^^^ is th real time CAD all over the place? i typically get a reported high of 200 plus, but i dont really pay that much attention to it anymore. later.
    No that's what I'm saying, my real-time cadence from the PT is pretty stable. Only shows a high of 120-130 in races, which is about right for me.

    I've gotten it to show 200+ by spinning a 39x21 (or so) down a 8% grade, and that's when I start to think it's numbers are a bit off. I doubt I can really pedal that fast..
    cat 1.

    blog

  2. #2602
    Training Issaquatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    What I would do is toy with your FTP until the IF comes out more believable. Might be hard to do without a bunch of known-good long rides, but that's what I would do. Or you could re-test.
    What kind of IF would be believable for a hard 4 hour group ride?

    I tested my FTP on Thursday and was practically cross-eyed and drooling by the end of the effort. I don't think I could go harder than I did in that test on the same course. But I did come away thinking that I could produce more power at the same level of perceived effort on a hill climb, rather than the flat course I used. Maybe Saturday's ride with the high intensity factor is evidence of that hypothesis.

  3. #2603
    Overacting because I can SpongeDad's Avatar
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    I've had .85 for 3 hr rides with hills - I wasn't spent, but I wasn't looking to do another hour either.
    “Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

    "I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)

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    Hey guys - I have a question.

    I just started riding with my Quarq, and the other day did a FTP test, and then today, did a power profile test ( according to the book ), and came up with some unusual results, and was wondering if some of you that are more experienced could point me in the right direction.

    The values I came up with are :

    5sec - 1min - 5 min - FTP
    16.09 - 6.41 - 4.44 - 3.54

    Any idea why my 1min would fall within "untrained" where all my other numbres are in the upper levels of moderate? In the book, it mentions this scenario, and to be suspect with the numbers. Is this just something where I need to record more ride data and come back to it?

    I just thought that by performing the power profile test today that it would've tested everything and given me reliable data? Maybe I need to re-test?

    Thanks for any help!!

  5. #2605
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    1 min is very hard to test. I ignore it, mostly

  6. #2606
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Issaquatch View Post
    including more than 1 hour above what I think is my threshold and more than 30 minutes at more than 60 watts above threshold
    By definition you can't ride for an hour over your threshold, since threshold is the most you can do for one hour.

    I'd use the best 1 hour from that segment for your threshold until you do a test, because it'll be even higher than that.

    This is a good problem to have.

  7. #2607
    Training Issaquatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    By definition you can't ride for an hour over your threshold, since threshold is the most you can do for one hour.

    I'd use the best 1 hour from that segment for your threshold until you do a test, because it'll be even higher than that.

    This is a good problem to have.
    It wasn't 1 solid hour riding above threshold. More like lots of 5-10 minute stretches of riding above threshold that added up to over an hour of riding above threshold by the end of the 4 hour ride.

    Anyone else have thoughts on how high IF would have to be for a 3-4 hour ride to conclude that FTP might be set wrong? It sounds like a few of you are skeptical of 0.93 for a 4 hour ride, so I should probably redo my FTP test (which I just did for the first time on Thursday).

  8. #2608
    Training Issaquatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petalpower View Post

    Any idea why my 1min would fall within "untrained" where all my other numbres are in the upper levels of moderate? In the book, it mentions this scenario, and to be suspect with the numbers. Is this just something where I need to record more ride data and come back to it?
    I'm no expert, but --> How fresh were you when you tested your 1 minute power? You rely heavily on neuromuscal strength and anaerobic power for the really short efforts, so it is really important to be fresh to get an accrurate result. I'd just wait until after your next rest day or two and then re-test it.

  9. #2609
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Issaquatch View Post
    It wasn't 1 solid hour riding above threshold. More like lots of 5-10 minute stretches of riding above threshold that added up to over an hour of riding above threshold by the end of the 4 hour ride.

    Anyone else have thoughts on how high IF would have to be for a 3-4 hour ride to conclude that FTP might be set wrong? It sounds like a few of you are skeptical of 0.93 for a 4 hour ride, so I should probably redo my FTP test (which I just did for the first time on Thursday).
    Um, yeah, non-continuous time over threshold doesn't really "count". Especially if you have good anaerobic capacity, you can keep punching high efforts over and over with some recovery, but that doesn't mean you would be able to actually sustain that for any continuous amount of time, like in a time trial. Also the IF is NP / FTP, so if it was a really "spikey" ride then the IF will be higher, and that too is an indicator of good anaerobic capacity, but not necessarily an FTP that is set too low. Or your FTP could be set too low, I'm not trying to discount that possibility, just give you other explanations.

    Edit: I've had some 4+ hour rides that were pretty close to .9 but none over.
    Last edited by umd; 08-22-10 at 11:02 PM.

  10. #2610
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    this could go poorly for me, but........anyone log none cycling workouts in WKO?

    i dabble in a little running this time of the year & use a Garmin to record the efforts. WKO+ can compute running TSS based on the data. i recall reading somewhere that folks were creating seperate profiles for different activities. not sure why though. later.

  11. #2611
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Issaquatch View Post
    I think I just found the answer to my own question. I re-read that section in the book and they say the goal of the 5 minute effort is to open up the legs, so I think it is okay to skip it given that I don't think it helps me.
    Re-read the book. I think you'll see they say do the 5 minutes at threshold, not all out. Big difference there.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  12. #2612
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petalpower View Post
    Any idea why my 1min would fall within "untrained" where all my other numbres are in the upper levels of moderate? In the book, it mentions this scenario, and to be suspect with the numbers. Is this just something where I need to record more ride data and come back to it?

    I just thought that by performing the power profile test today that it would've tested everything and given me reliable data? Maybe I need to re-test?

    Thanks for any help!!
    Being new to the power meter, you likely don't know how to test 5" and almost certainly don't know how to test 1' power. Play around with sprints some. Do shorter ones so you can do a several without messing with your workout. You'll learn to feel what's a more powerful pedal stroke. that will help out your 5" power test, just with form.

    For the 1' test, you need to start off with a 100%, and stay on it, all-out, until 1:02. Every single pedal stroke needs to be as absolutely hard as possible. No pacing at all, just explode and keep clawing away at it. Fight it until the end, and go 2" longer to make sure you capture the best 60" in there.

    The 1' test should ruin you for the day, and there should be no way you'd be getting an effective test at any other durations after it. You can do a real 5" test during the warmup for the 1' test, just make sure not to go longer than 7" so you can stay fresh for the 1' test.

    Check out this thread to see the shape of a 1' test: What's your WRI™ look like?

  13. #2613
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aham23 View Post
    this could go poorly for me, but........anyone log none cycling workouts in WKO?

    i dabble in a little running this time of the year & use a Garmin to record the efforts. WKO+ can compute running TSS based on the data. i recall reading somewhere that folks were creating seperate profiles for different activities. not sure why though. later.
    I don't know about all that, but I do log my MTB workouts when I don't have a PT.

    I just create a workout from the calendar, save it, then edit the TSS from the calendar.

  14. #2614
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    I'm in the process of installing the pre-reqs to compile GC from source.. I might just take a whack at fixing the tcx import bug...
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  15. #2615
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    found the bugger.. Does anyone actually use smart recording?
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  16. #2616
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    I'm in the process of installing the pre-reqs to compile GC from source.. I might just take a whack at fixing the tcx import bug...
    Uh oh...I've been using GC all season...importing tcx files from Garmin Training Center (use a Garmin Edge 500). Without scrolling through previous pages, what bug are you referring to?

    I do note that the "time ridden" can differ between GTC and GC (I think GC includes auto pauses and starts/stops as time ridden), which could impact IF and NP and TSS. I also noted today that average HR can differ by 2-4 BPM between the two.

  17. #2617
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    You're very close.. It impacts everything. This bug kicked in in version 1.3. Basically, any missing time stamps are interpreted as lost data due to smart recording, and so GC tries to guesstimate the missing data. It'll affect time ridden, AP, NP, tss, average hr, average speed, everything except distance. It's kind of annoying..

    The solutions are to:

    1. turn off auto-pause

    or

    2. turn on smart recording (I guess, maybe not work though)

    or

    3. edit and fix your ride via the ride editor when you're done.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  18. #2618
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    the actual bit of code (the ifdef is my quick and sleazy fix):

    if(deltaSecs == 1) {
    // no smart recording, just insert the data
    rideFile->appendPoint(secs, cadence, hr, distance,
    speed, torque, power, alt, lon, lat, headwind, lap);
    **
    else {
    #ifdef SMARTRECORD
    for(int i = 1; i <= deltaSecs; i++) {
    double weight = i/ deltaSecs;
    double kph = prevPoint->kph + (deltaSpeed *weight);
    // need to make sure speed goes to zero
    kph = kph > 0.35 ? kph : 0;
    double cad = prevPoint->cad + (deltaCad * weight);
    cad = cad > 0.35 ? cad : 0;
    double lat = prevPoint->lat + (deltaLat * weight);
    double lon = prevPoint->lon + (deltaLon * weight);
    rideFile->appendPoint(
    prevPoint->secs + (deltaSecs * weight),
    prevPoint->cad + (deltaCad * weight),
    prevPoint->hr + (deltaHr * weight),
    prevPoint->km + (deltaDist * weight),
    kph,
    prevPoint->nm + (deltaTorque * weight),
    prevPoint->watts + (deltaPower * weight),
    prevPoint->alt + (deltaAlt * weight),
    lon, // lon
    lat, // lat
    headwind, // headwind
    lap);
    **
    #endif
    prevPoint = rideFile->dataPoints().back();
    **
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  19. #2619
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    pocket protector alert
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  20. #2620
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    that didn't fix it, but it was close.. It's now fixed in my copy of gc!

    ahh, the power of opensource.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  21. #2621
    slow up hills kudude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    that didn't fix it, but it was close.. It's now fixed in my copy of gc!

    ahh, the power of opensource.
    don't understand if it's fixed or not. Did you just add the "#ifdef SMARTRECORD"
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_tom View Post
    Cycling isn't a sport. It's more like a really, really expensive eating disorder.

  22. #2622
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    Some Garmin devices (i.e. edge 500s) use smart record when there's no power meter, and there's no way to turn that off.
    So yea, supporting smart record is a good thing.
    You should post on the mailing list and talk with the guys who have been working on this. Just turning off the smart record interpolation isn't the right way to go since it'll make any ride recorded without power (on a smart record-forcing device) useless.

  23. #2623
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    I know.. I'm actually just about done with a fix that involves a configuration option. IMHO, it's the only real way to fix it without changing a bunch of logic.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  24. #2624
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    OK, my patches are done. I'll make the diff's and then send them on sometime tomorrow. Time to go get my shots.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  25. #2625
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    Thanks for the help so far guys - this is an ongoing learning process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Issaquatch View Post
    I'm no expert, but --> How fresh were you when you tested your 1 minute power? You rely heavily on neuromuscal strength and anaerobic power for the really short efforts, so it is really important to be fresh to get an accrurate result. I'd just wait until after your next rest day or two and then re-test it.

    Well, for the prescribed workout, I was pretty well rested ( I think ) - I was off the bike for 2 days. I pretty much followed the workout as outlined in the book I'm using ( Training And Racing With A Power Meter ). I did mess up the 1min test initially, but rested ~10mins ( 70% of FTP ) and then re-did the 3 x 1min "All-out effort" intervals with 3-5 minutes in between. Perhaps by the second, correct attempt, I was spent - I sure did feel it.

    After that test, I felt like I've never before. Legs hurt, and just an overall feeling of weakness.


    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Being new to the power meter, you likely don't know how to test 5" and almost certainly don't know how to test 1' power. Play around with sprints some. Do shorter ones so you can do a several without messing with your workout. You'll learn to feel what's a more powerful pedal stroke. that will help out your 5" power test, just with form.

    For the 1' test, you need to start off with a 100%, and stay on it, all-out, until 1:02. Every single pedal stroke needs to be as absolutely hard as possible. No pacing at all, just explode and keep clawing away at it. Fight it until the end, and go 2" longer to make sure you capture the best 60" in there.

    The 1' test should ruin you for the day, and there should be no way you'd be getting an effective test at any other durations after it. You can do a real 5" test during the warmup for the 1' test, just make sure not to go longer than 7" so you can stay fresh for the 1' test.

    Check out this thread to see the shape of a 1' test: What's your WRI™ look like?
    Thanks for the link. If you read my reply to Issaquatch, I think I found the reason my the results were suspect. I think I need to study these workouts more, and maybe even laminate the workout onto a small card to mount on the bike someplace for quick reference.

    On a separate note/question, how do you guys do specific workouts on public roads and not get interrupted by traffic, turns, stops, etc?

    I live in a pretty rural place ( less than 2K people ) and still had issues not being interrupted. Is the trainer the best scenario when it comes to precisely following a specific workout?

    Thanks again guys

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