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Old 08-23-10, 09:07 PM   #2626
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Originally Posted by petalpower View Post

I live in a pretty rural place ( less than 2K people ) and still had issues not being interrupted. Is the trainer the best scenario when it comes to precisely following a specific workout?
It depends..

Using a trainer is both convenient and consistent, however you can't sprint out of the saddle on a trainer effectively so that limits you. When following specific protocol the trainer takes variables out of the equation. I prefer the trainer for active recovery mostly, but for longer intervals, it does have its advantages.
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Old 08-24-10, 06:47 AM   #2627
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Old 08-24-10, 06:47 AM   #2628
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On a separate note/question, how do you guys do specific workouts on public roads and not get interrupted by traffic, turns, stops, etc?

I live in a pretty rural place ( less than 2K people ) and still had issues not being interrupted. Is the trainer the best scenario when it comes to precisely following a specific workout?

Thanks again guys
I do all my VO2 and FTP specific workouts on my trainer (about to to get back on my rollers)--2x20's, ZeCanons, 5x5'x5RI, etc. I don't have anything remotely close to me where I can go for more than 4 minutes without stopping or without a large downhill in the middle.
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Old 08-24-10, 07:46 AM   #2629
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I have the same issue, but have found specific roads that allow me to do my workouts as required....

It means I tend to ride in the same areas over and over again, but I would rather do that then ride the trainer....
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Old 08-24-10, 04:09 PM   #2630
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If you had to pick the more accurate measurement which would you use (both a few days apart and the hill climb coming the day after a road race as part of a long training ride)? Both efforts essentially all out.

A) A solo 20 minute effort, continuous, flat level ground, no stops in a business park NP 283 (dont have the WKO in front of me so I don't have the other #'s)
or
B) A hill 20 minute hill climb effort. NP 306 (Old La Honda, just under 20 minutes)
or
C) split the difference

Part of me is a bit skeptical about using 95% of a 20 minute effort to determine FTP (i apologize if that is the wrong %), but I'm not convince that had I backed off 5% going up the hill that I could have climbed at that pace for 60 minutes...I'm pretty sure I would have died.
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Old 08-24-10, 04:17 PM   #2631
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Since ftp is supposed to be the max power you can hold for an hour, I would use the larger of the two, which happens to be the hill effort.
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Old 08-24-10, 04:45 PM   #2632
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Originally Posted by save10 View Post
If you had to pick the more accurate measurement which would you use (both a few days apart and the hill climb coming the day after a road race as part of a long training ride)? Both efforts essentially all out.

A) A solo 20 minute effort, continuous, flat level ground, no stops in a business park NP 283 (dont have the WKO in front of me so I don't have the other #'s)
or
B) A hill 20 minute hill climb effort. NP 306 (Old La Honda, just under 20 minutes)
or
C) split the difference

Part of me is a bit skeptical about using 95% of a 20 minute effort to determine FTP (i apologize if that is the wrong %), but I'm not convince that had I backed off 5% going up the hill that I could have climbed at that pace for 60 minutes...I'm pretty sure I would have died.
Use the OLH time. It'll only move your TSS scores by fractions, so you might as well set a higher target and try to work with that. There's no downside.

It's also easier to make power on a hill that it is on flats, so you'll always do a little better with the extra resistance (unless, I guess, you work on the flats enough to get used to the position and equalize the power).

Anyway, around here, you're going to be timing yourself on climbs and doing climbing rides, so work with the power you know on climbs.
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Old 08-24-10, 06:03 PM   #2633
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I have the same issue, but have found specific roads that allow me to do my workouts as required....

It means I tend to ride in the same areas over and over again, but I would rather do that then ride the trainer....
I thankfully have a circular bike track (built originally for the cyclists' warmups for the 1956 Olympics) close to home. This is great for training. Also on the bike track route home from the city.

http://goo.gl/maps/czZc
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Old 08-24-10, 08:03 PM   #2634
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If you had to pick the more accurate measurement which would you use (both a few days apart and the hill climb coming the day after a road race as part of a long training ride)? Both efforts essentially all out.

A) A solo 20 minute effort, continuous, flat level ground, no stops in a business park NP 283 (dont have the WKO in front of me so I don't have the other #'s)
or
B) A hill 20 minute hill climb effort. NP 306 (Old La Honda, just under 20 minutes)
or
C) split the difference

Part of me is a bit skeptical about using 95% of a 20 minute effort to determine FTP (i apologize if that is the wrong %), but I'm not convince that had I backed off 5% going up the hill that I could have climbed at that pace for 60 minutes...I'm pretty sure I would have died.
That's a pretty big difference, but I guess I'd average the 2 and take 95% of that.

I also use a 20 minute test, but do it on my rollers. I use the test from the Allen/Coggan book that says to do a 5 minute all-out effort, then 10 minutes rest, and then the 20 minute TT (and then take 95% of the 20 minute time). The 5 minutes all-out takes the 'fresh' out of your legs. It's a little more painful since you have 2 very hard intervals, but the FTP effort feels very accurate to me.
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Old 08-25-10, 12:13 AM   #2635
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Anyway, around here, you're going to be timing yourself on climbs and doing climbing rides, so work with the power you know on climbs.
Unless you're doing TTs
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Old 08-25-10, 07:05 AM   #2636
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Originally Posted by save10 View Post
If you had to pick the more accurate measurement which would you use (both a few days apart and the hill climb coming the day after a road race as part of a long training ride)? Both efforts essentially all out.

A) A solo 20 minute effort, continuous, flat level ground, no stops in a business park NP 283 (dont have the WKO in front of me so I don't have the other #'s)
or
B) A hill 20 minute hill climb effort. NP 306 (Old La Honda, just under 20 minutes)
or
C) split the difference

Part of me is a bit skeptical about using 95% of a 20 minute effort to determine FTP (i apologize if that is the wrong %), but I'm not convince that had I backed off 5% going up the hill that I could have climbed at that pace for 60 minutes...I'm pretty sure I would have died.
I believe you're supposed to use AP not NP for the 95%... But, realistically, for a well metered effort, AP/NP should be pretty close to each other. If there's a wide discrepancy then you did it wrong.
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Old 08-25-10, 09:13 AM   #2637
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20 minutes is too short to use NP for estimating FTP. It will most likely be too high. If the hill climb effort was all out, snot on the bars, as hard as you can go, I'd use 95% of the AP. Assuming you had a pretty good warmup with some really hard efforts. Its worth noting that the 5 minute "blow out" effort before the 20 minute test is an integral part of making the 20-min test accurate.
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Old 08-25-10, 10:29 AM   #2638
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I thought the rule of thumb was the last 20 minutes of a 30 mm TT effort was the best approximation. I'm a little leary of testing on 20 minutes and not longer efforts though. If you train and test at 20 minutes, you'll get comfortable riding hard for 20 minutes. For me, when I focused on 20 min efforts, I saw more than 5% drop off for 60 minutes.

I found a great, albeit not flat, spot to do TT training - at an old fort south of DC. Nobody is there in the morning and you can just go head down and flog yourself. It's slightly hilly so I use it for doing extended over under training - power peaks a bit on the up and recover a bit on the down, but the average is still around FTP.
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Old 08-25-10, 10:39 AM   #2639
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Unless you're doing TTs
Yeah, and I heard you say you specifically work on flat intervals to decrease the difference between flat/hilly. Don't think I didn't take notes!
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Old 08-25-10, 11:54 AM   #2640
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Re-read the book. I think you'll see they say do the 5 minutes at threshold, not all out. Big difference there.
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20 minutes is too short to use NP for estimating FTP. It will most likely be too high. If the hill climb effort was all out, snot on the bars, as hard as you can go, I'd use 95% of the AP. Assuming you had a pretty good warmup with some really hard efforts. Its worth noting that the 5 minute "blow out" effort before the 20 minute test is an integral part of making the 20-min test accurate.
Looking at the book again, I don't think either of these comments are quite right. Training and Racing with a Power Meter says you should do a "5-minute all out effort." It does sound like they intended it to be an effort above threshold, not at threshold. That said, from the book it doesn't appear to be their intent that the effort is supposed to be a blow out effort to reduce your anaerobic power. The book says the goal of the effort is "to open up the legs for the rest of the effort" and "to capture your ability to produce watts at [VO2 max power]." As Zecanon (and Allen and Coggan) note, if you are multiplying the average watts for the 20 minute effort by .95, then you are making the appropriate adjustment to account for anaerobic capacity that was used in the 20 minute effort.
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Old 08-25-10, 11:56 AM   #2641
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Ever since I put my new powertap wheel on, my Garmin has been automatically recalibrating my wheel size at the start of every ride. It appears to be making my speed and distance numbers inaccurate. Anyone know why this might be happening or how to stop it?
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Old 08-25-10, 11:59 AM   #2642
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I stopped doing the 5 minute all out effort because I completely destroyed myself doing it. I wouldn't be able to do 20 minutes at 80% after the all out effort. I think I read an Friel post somewhere saying that some people could do the all out effort and others couldn't while doing the test.

I also had a 400 watt NP 20 minute effort in a group ride once. I know my FTP never was 380. I wouldn't use NP myself.
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Old 08-25-10, 12:02 PM   #2643
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I think some people must be taking the "all out" more seriously than others. If you actually did an "all out" effort, every single pedal stroke as hard as you can, for 5 minutes, I don't know how you could possibly do any sort of effort after that.
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Old 08-25-10, 12:18 PM   #2644
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Ever since I put my new powertap wheel on, my Garmin has been automatically recalibrating my wheel size at the start of every ride. It appears to be making my speed and distance numbers inaccurate. Anyone know why this might be happening or how to stop it?
this was happening to me and i was told just to set the wheel size manually and be done with it. so i did. later.
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Old 08-25-10, 01:05 PM   #2645
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Anyone here have experience modeling a season without the use of the traditional planned rest, e.g. 3 weeks on 1 week off or any variation of that.

The reason why I ask is because I want to try the Lydiard approach as a model for the coming 2011 road season and it suggests that I up my CTL 3-6 pts/wk for 8-10 wks for the aerobic training period then to level off or increase CTL slowly by 0-3 pts/wk for lactate / V02 period. No rest week is planned, only the CTL ramp rate is changed. So in other words, my CTL will be steadily increasing without the dramatic CTL peaks and valleys created by the "x" weeks on "x" weeks off approach. TSB will be looked at and compared to perceived daily stress for signs of overtraining and CTL will then be adjusted accordingly.

Based on previous data, I'm thinking of 3 pts/wk increase in CTL. I mean, as long as my TSB, CTL, and ATL reach the theoretical "optimal" point for my planned A race that's all that counts right? I don't think I need an ATL kick then a dramatic leveling off to peak. What do you guys think?
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Old 08-25-10, 01:48 PM   #2646
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I need rest weeks during this time of year. But I am doing a lot of long hard rides in preparation for the Everest Challenge stage race and the ATL ramps up more than I can handle without taking some rest. Earlier in the season I am doing less volume and don't need rest weeks. Note that rest week doesn't mean an entire week off the bike. For me it means an extra day off in addition to my usual one day off the bike, and an easy day.
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Old 08-25-10, 05:23 PM   #2647
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I think some people must be taking the "all out" more seriously than others. If you actually did an "all out" effort, every single pedal stroke as hard as you can, for 5 minutes, I don't know how you could possibly do any sort of effort after that.
I take the 5 minute "all out" as a 5 minute TT, not a sprint from the start and pedal as hard as possible. It is still paced, but "all out" over the 5 minutes in my book. I absolutely bury myself, HR is max (or very close) at the end. Then you have 10 minutes of recovery before the 20 minute test.

So, if I look at my "best ever" 5 minute power on my critical power chart, it is always from an FTP test.

If I look at my "best ever" 20 minute power, it's never from an FTP test (because the best interval is not proceeded by a 5 minute "all-out").
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Old 08-25-10, 06:33 PM   #2648
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20 minutes is too short to use NP for estimating FTP. It will most likely be too high. If the hill climb effort was all out, snot on the bars, as hard as you can go, I'd use 95% of the AP. Assuming you had a pretty good warmup with some really hard efforts. Its worth noting that the 5 minute "blow out" effort before the 20 minute test is an integral part of making the 20-min test accurate.
Looking at the #s, the NP and AP for both are essentially similar. Looking back on it...the flat ground effort I did a 20 minutes spin prior, but no 5 min 'all out effort'. The hill climb was already an hour into my ride with several efforts of 5 minutes or more that were all out or close to it already elapsed. So I'm gonna go with the hill climb effort for the time being.

Last edited by save10; 08-25-10 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 08-25-10, 07:41 PM   #2649
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OK guys...need your advice on whether, based on tonight's training crit, my FTP is set too low as indicated the seemingly high Relative Intensity. In short, just got my SRM installed and my 20 minute power test yesterday was 292 watts, for a FTP of 277. This result was 12 watts lower than what I tested in February with my Powertap.

Anyway, stats from today's training crit: Duration= 57:56; Distance = 25.0 miles; Avg power = 259; Norm Power = 271; Bikescore (TSS) = 92; Relative Intensity = .978; average HR = 168 (max = 193).

I was toast after the race, almost seeing double, I couldn't have gone harder if I tried.

thanks for your input.
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Old 08-25-10, 08:23 PM   #2650
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For what its worth, the powertap I was using before I got my SRM read higher, resulting in me having to lower my FTP once I switched to the SRM.
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