Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-31-10, 02:50 PM   #2751
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
ok, bumping this b/c no one has responded to my previous question.

I also got another one to ask, does golden cheetah have the ability to calculate aerobic decoupling? If so, is it embedded into the program or do you have to import a script for it?
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-10, 03:17 PM   #2752
mike868y
avatar by Sean Powers
 
mike868y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: charm city
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Tarmac Pro
Posts: 8,905
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Yes it does calculate aerobic decoupling and it is embedded into the program.
mike868y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-10, 03:18 PM   #2753
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
sweet. thanks for the quick response.

my setup is arriving in one day
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-10, 03:41 PM   #2754
mike868y
avatar by Sean Powers
 
mike868y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: charm city
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Tarmac Pro
Posts: 8,905
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
nice! I really like gc. I've never used wko+, but gc does everything I need it to. I wish it could calculate decoupling for a certain interval, but it only does the entire ride, so if you do a cooldown it throws it off. You can just calculate it on your own though if it is really important to you, which isn't that hard.
mike868y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-10, 04:03 PM   #2755
slynkie
negligent.
 
slynkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: White Plains, NY
Bikes: a few
Posts: 837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
nice! I really like gc. I've never used wko+, but gc does everything I need it to. I wish it could calculate decoupling for a certain interval, but it only does the entire ride, so if you do a cooldown it throws it off. You can just calculate it on your own though if it is really important to you, which isn't that hard.


WKO shows the power-heartrate relationship for any interval you select.
slynkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-10, 04:14 PM   #2756
mike868y
avatar by Sean Powers
 
mike868y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: charm city
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Tarmac Pro
Posts: 8,905
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slynkie View Post


WKO shows the power-heartrate relationship for any interval you select.
Well I'm on a mac so i don't have an elegant solution except to use gc, so I'm fine just calculating it for intervals and such.

And there's a difference between what I need to to do and what I want it to do.
mike868y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-10, 11:45 PM   #2757
Hapsmo911
Senior Member
 
Hapsmo911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Bikes:
Posts: 662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Basically, no. As long as you make sure the o-rings are healthy and greased after you remove/install parts, it's good.

Of note though, I had a warranty claim on mine after I had it rebuilt. They said it was water damaged and asked what kind of rain I'd been riding in. I asked if they'd heard SRV's Texas Flood, and they said not to ride in that kind of rain if I could help it.

Thanks for the heads up. I emailed Saris and got this "Water Resistant, not water proof. If you knew that it were raining a lot and were going to be getting very wet, I would not recommend that you use the PowerTap."

Guess when it is raining hard I'll just use other wheels.
Hapsmo911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 12:13 AM   #2758
kleinboogie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,607
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just a note that PerfPRO does all the calculations either by interval/lap, whole ride, multiple rides or any range you select.
kleinboogie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 07:46 PM   #2759
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 7,470
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slynkie View Post
WKO shows the power-heartrate relationship for any interval you select.
GC does as well although I don't know what you'd use it for.
gregf83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 08:01 PM   #2760
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
GC does as well although I don't know what you'd use it for.
At constant effort, see how much HR drift. I think it could be interpreted (barring things such as huge elevation changes, humidity, heat, etc) as a sign that the aerobic base is not strong enough.
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 09:46 PM   #2761
slynkie
negligent.
 
slynkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: White Plains, NY
Bikes: a few
Posts: 837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
At constant effort, see how much HR drift. I think it could be interpreted (barring things such as huge elevation changes, humidity, heat, etc) as a sign that the aerobic base is not strong enough.
this.

being able to view the relationship for any given interval is important to be able to exclude warmups/cooldowns (at least, that's my reason).
slynkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 09:46 PM   #2762
kudude
slow up hills
 
kudude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Posts: 4,931
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
At constant effort, see how much HR drift. I think it could be interpreted (barring things such as huge elevation changes, humidity, heat, etc) as a sign that the aerobic base is not strong enough.
not necessarily that the aerobic base isn't strong enough, but an indicator of the strength of that base. also, aside from external factors that you mentioned, it may indicate from day to day an overall fatigue level or even so much as a diet/hydration deficiency.
kudude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-10, 09:49 PM   #2763
slynkie
negligent.
 
slynkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: White Plains, NY
Bikes: a few
Posts: 837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kudude View Post
not necessarily that the aerobic base isn't strong enough, but an indicator of the strength of that base. also, aside from external factors that you mentioned, it may indicate from day to day an overall fatigue level or even so much as a diet/hydration deficiency.
that's pretty cool, i hadn't thought of it.
slynkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-10, 09:55 PM   #2764
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 7,470
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
At constant effort, see how much HR drift. I think it could be interpreted (barring things such as huge elevation changes, humidity, heat, etc) as a sign that the aerobic base is not strong enough.
I think it depends quite heavily on the effort. Riding at threshold for 20 min the HR will generally rise. I think you need to ride at an endurance or tempo pace for it to be meaningful. For longer durations I often get dehydrated which also make HR rise.
gregf83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-10, 09:58 PM   #2765
slynkie
negligent.
 
slynkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: White Plains, NY
Bikes: a few
Posts: 837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
yes, i think usually when talking about heartrate drift (at least this time of year), it's in reference to hour+ efforts around aerobic threshold.
slynkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 11:20 AM   #2766
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Anybody do manual calculations of CTL, ATL, and TSB? Golden Cheetah has a similar thing, but i somehow don't trust it. For example, for my FTP test, my NP was 283, but GC gave a xPower of 272. I'm thinking of doing the rolling average stuff on excel & just monitor it that way.

Alternatively, if anyone has a conversion of the GC metrics to the WKO+ metrics on stress, that'd also be helpful.

Thanks
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 11:26 AM   #2767
mike868y
avatar by Sean Powers
 
mike868y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: charm city
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Tarmac Pro
Posts: 8,905
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
Anybody do manual calculations of CTL, ATL, and TSB? Golden Cheetah has a similar thing, but i somehow don't trust it. For example, for my FTP test, my NP was 283, but GC gave a xPower of 272. I'm thinking of doing the rolling average stuff on excel & just monitor it that way.

Alternatively, if anyone has a conversion of the GC metrics to the WKO+ metrics on stress, that'd also be helpful.

Thanks
I think as long as you always use GC's PMC then the tracking of will be fairly accurate. IIRC ze uses GC, so if it is good enough for him, it's probably good enough for me and you
mike868y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 11:56 AM   #2768
slynkie
negligent.
 
slynkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: White Plains, NY
Bikes: a few
Posts: 837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
I think as long as you always use GC's PMC then the tracking of will be fairly accurate. IIRC ze uses GC, so if it is good enough for him, it's probably good enough for me and you
+1

there are some smart guys working on GC. i don't know what the differences are between its calculations and WKO's, but it probably doesn't matter much anyway (for most of us). using it consistently and learning what the #s mean to you and how you perform, are probably much more critical.

for setting FTP, since you have the NP (from a 60' race effort, i'm guessing?), use the 283w value and see how the workouts based on that feel.
slynkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 12:18 PM   #2769
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slynkie View Post
+1

there are some smart guys working on GC. i don't know what the differences are between its calculations and WKO's, but it probably doesn't matter much anyway (for most of us). using it consistently and learning what the #s mean to you and how you perform, are probably much more critical.

for setting FTP, since you have the NP (from a 60' race effort, i'm guessing?), use the 283w value and see how the workouts based on that feel.
Mikey & slynkie, thanks for the info. I'll stop worrying & just use the GC metrics.

The FTP is actually from a 20 minute test. Not sure if you are familiar with Rout 9W in NJ, but i basically thought i could fit the entire 20 minutes on a route with a very slight incline of 0.5%. Trouble being that there were some downhill stretches where it's hard to go above 230W and then at the 18th minute, a big elevation change (300 ft in the next half mile or something) was approaching. So i actually did a U-turn at the 18th minute and looped back. Alas, i'll be using my average and not normalized power. Besides, i can claim larger gains when i test my FTP on a more reasonable course (say Central Park, which is basically off limits this week due to the marathon))
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 12:21 PM   #2770
ZeCanon
Writin' stuff
 
ZeCanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Boulder, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 3,784
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
GC always shows lower NP (or xPower) numbers. It's just calculated differently. Like most things PM, repeatability is more important than absolute accuracy.

And I'm not a big fan of normalized power for anything other than load tracking anyway. It DEFINITELY should not be used for FTP estimation.
ZeCanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 03:42 PM   #2771
mike868y
avatar by Sean Powers
 
mike868y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: charm city
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Tarmac Pro
Posts: 8,905
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
My xPower always comes out lower on my 20' tests than my AP, so I generally default to using AP.
mike868y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 06:43 PM   #2772
wanders
going roundy round
 
wanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: High Point, NC
Bikes:
Posts: 6,081
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I didn't think xPower could be lower than AP. I'm just glad to hear that GC is lowballing my NP. I knew I couldn't be that weak.
wanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 07:01 PM   #2773
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Allen & Coggan states that it's okay to go over the limit when going up hills, but is there a percentage above the highest power for the zone over which you shouldn't go? For example, the high limit for my endurance and tempo zones are 190W and 230W, respectively. What would be a good number to shoot for when cresting a hill when during a work out in either zone?

Also, say when I'm doing an endurance ride, the zone for which is between 142-190W, what's a good final average power to shoot for? I'm finding it hard to keep the average power (156 AP, 168 NP) up despite trying to hold it between 170-190W for most of the time. This pacing thing is gonna take me quite a bit to get used to...
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-10, 08:10 PM   #2774
slynkie
negligent.
 
slynkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: White Plains, NY
Bikes: a few
Posts: 837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
Allen & Coggan states that it's okay to go over the limit when going up hills, but is there a percentage above the highest power for the zone over which you shouldn't go? For example, the high limit for my endurance and tempo zones are 190W and 230W, respectively. What would be a good number to shoot for when cresting a hill when during a work out in either zone?
good question..as i guess you know given your location, we've got some pretty steep (though short) climbs around here that make it really difficult to keep the power down, even at <50 RPM. personally I just try to keep it under threshold, and that's usually doable (our zones/FTPs sound very similar, btw). i figure it's a good balance of not-too-hard but still get-you-over-it-quickly. i'd love to hear other opinions though.

Quote:
Also, say when I'm doing an endurance ride, the zone for which is between 142-190W, what's a good final average power to shoot for? I'm finding it hard to keep the average power (156 AP, 168 NP) up despite trying to hold it between 170-190W for most of the time. This pacing thing is gonna take me quite a bit to get used to...
it's not just you. learning to keep the power steady is one thing, but even when you've got that down, you're bound to hit lights/stop signs/traffic/etc, at least around here. so, I've stopped worrying about it, and I pay less attention to the AP, and more attention to the total amount of time spent in the zone. my power is very variable (working on that), so e.g. for a 4hr endurance ride, I may only see 3hrs spent actually in zone 2. probably 20 minutes of that "lost hour" is in zone 3/4, another 15 minutes lost at various traffic inconveniences (lights, heavy traffic, etc), and the rest is just me losing focus and dipping in to zone 1.

edit: my point is that for a zone 2 ride, you may be better off aiming for a % of time in the right zone, rather than an AP. i'd think that 80%+ in zone is pretty decent, for anything over 3 hours.

Last edited by slynkie; 11-05-10 at 08:13 PM. Reason: add a point
slynkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-10, 01:01 PM   #2775
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
slynkie, thanks for the suggestions.

I think it'd be easier for workouts in other zones given that you are already at SST & going to FTP power over a bump won't throw things off. Though it amazes me that it might take 300W or more to go over small bumps at 15mph.
echappist is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:05 PM.