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  1. #2751
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    ok, bumping this b/c no one has responded to my previous question.

    I also got another one to ask, does golden cheetah have the ability to calculate aerobic decoupling? If so, is it embedded into the program or do you have to import a script for it?

  2. #2752
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Yes it does calculate aerobic decoupling and it is embedded into the program.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  3. #2753
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    sweet. thanks for the quick response.

    my setup is arriving in one day

  4. #2754
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    nice! I really like gc. I've never used wko+, but gc does everything I need it to. I wish it could calculate decoupling for a certain interval, but it only does the entire ride, so if you do a cooldown it throws it off. You can just calculate it on your own though if it is really important to you, which isn't that hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  5. #2755
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
    nice! I really like gc. I've never used wko+, but gc does everything I need it to. I wish it could calculate decoupling for a certain interval, but it only does the entire ride, so if you do a cooldown it throws it off. You can just calculate it on your own though if it is really important to you, which isn't that hard.


    WKO shows the power-heartrate relationship for any interval you select.

  6. #2756
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slynkie View Post


    WKO shows the power-heartrate relationship for any interval you select.
    Well I'm on a mac so i don't have an elegant solution except to use gc, so I'm fine just calculating it for intervals and such.

    And there's a difference between what I need to to do and what I want it to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  7. #2757
    Senior Member Hapsmo911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Basically, no. As long as you make sure the o-rings are healthy and greased after you remove/install parts, it's good.

    Of note though, I had a warranty claim on mine after I had it rebuilt. They said it was water damaged and asked what kind of rain I'd been riding in. I asked if they'd heard SRV's Texas Flood, and they said not to ride in that kind of rain if I could help it.

    Thanks for the heads up. I emailed Saris and got this "Water Resistant, not water proof. If you knew that it were raining a lot and were going to be getting very wet, I would not recommend that you use the PowerTap."

    Guess when it is raining hard I'll just use other wheels.

  8. #2758
    Senior Member kleinboogie's Avatar
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    Just a note that PerfPRO does all the calculations either by interval/lap, whole ride, multiple rides or any range you select.

  9. #2759
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    Quote Originally Posted by slynkie View Post
    WKO shows the power-heartrate relationship for any interval you select.
    GC does as well although I don't know what you'd use it for.

  10. #2760
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    GC does as well although I don't know what you'd use it for.
    At constant effort, see how much HR drift. I think it could be interpreted (barring things such as huge elevation changes, humidity, heat, etc) as a sign that the aerobic base is not strong enough.

  11. #2761
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
    At constant effort, see how much HR drift. I think it could be interpreted (barring things such as huge elevation changes, humidity, heat, etc) as a sign that the aerobic base is not strong enough.
    this.

    being able to view the relationship for any given interval is important to be able to exclude warmups/cooldowns (at least, that's my reason).

  12. #2762
    slow up hills kudude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
    At constant effort, see how much HR drift. I think it could be interpreted (barring things such as huge elevation changes, humidity, heat, etc) as a sign that the aerobic base is not strong enough.
    not necessarily that the aerobic base isn't strong enough, but an indicator of the strength of that base. also, aside from external factors that you mentioned, it may indicate from day to day an overall fatigue level or even so much as a diet/hydration deficiency.
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_tom View Post
    Cycling isn't a sport. It's more like a really, really expensive eating disorder.

  13. #2763
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kudude View Post
    not necessarily that the aerobic base isn't strong enough, but an indicator of the strength of that base. also, aside from external factors that you mentioned, it may indicate from day to day an overall fatigue level or even so much as a diet/hydration deficiency.
    that's pretty cool, i hadn't thought of it.

  14. #2764
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
    At constant effort, see how much HR drift. I think it could be interpreted (barring things such as huge elevation changes, humidity, heat, etc) as a sign that the aerobic base is not strong enough.
    I think it depends quite heavily on the effort. Riding at threshold for 20 min the HR will generally rise. I think you need to ride at an endurance or tempo pace for it to be meaningful. For longer durations I often get dehydrated which also make HR rise.

  15. #2765
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    yes, i think usually when talking about heartrate drift (at least this time of year), it's in reference to hour+ efforts around aerobic threshold.

  16. #2766
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Anybody do manual calculations of CTL, ATL, and TSB? Golden Cheetah has a similar thing, but i somehow don't trust it. For example, for my FTP test, my NP was 283, but GC gave a xPower of 272. I'm thinking of doing the rolling average stuff on excel & just monitor it that way.

    Alternatively, if anyone has a conversion of the GC metrics to the WKO+ metrics on stress, that'd also be helpful.

    Thanks

  17. #2767
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
    Anybody do manual calculations of CTL, ATL, and TSB? Golden Cheetah has a similar thing, but i somehow don't trust it. For example, for my FTP test, my NP was 283, but GC gave a xPower of 272. I'm thinking of doing the rolling average stuff on excel & just monitor it that way.

    Alternatively, if anyone has a conversion of the GC metrics to the WKO+ metrics on stress, that'd also be helpful.

    Thanks
    I think as long as you always use GC's PMC then the tracking of will be fairly accurate. IIRC ze uses GC, so if it is good enough for him, it's probably good enough for me and you
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  18. #2768
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
    I think as long as you always use GC's PMC then the tracking of will be fairly accurate. IIRC ze uses GC, so if it is good enough for him, it's probably good enough for me and you
    +1

    there are some smart guys working on GC. i don't know what the differences are between its calculations and WKO's, but it probably doesn't matter much anyway (for most of us). using it consistently and learning what the #s mean to you and how you perform, are probably much more critical.

    for setting FTP, since you have the NP (from a 60' race effort, i'm guessing?), use the 283w value and see how the workouts based on that feel.

  19. #2769
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slynkie View Post
    +1

    there are some smart guys working on GC. i don't know what the differences are between its calculations and WKO's, but it probably doesn't matter much anyway (for most of us). using it consistently and learning what the #s mean to you and how you perform, are probably much more critical.

    for setting FTP, since you have the NP (from a 60' race effort, i'm guessing?), use the 283w value and see how the workouts based on that feel.
    Mikey & slynkie, thanks for the info. I'll stop worrying & just use the GC metrics.

    The FTP is actually from a 20 minute test. Not sure if you are familiar with Rout 9W in NJ, but i basically thought i could fit the entire 20 minutes on a route with a very slight incline of 0.5%. Trouble being that there were some downhill stretches where it's hard to go above 230W and then at the 18th minute, a big elevation change (300 ft in the next half mile or something) was approaching. So i actually did a U-turn at the 18th minute and looped back. Alas, i'll be using my average and not normalized power. Besides, i can claim larger gains when i test my FTP on a more reasonable course (say Central Park, which is basically off limits this week due to the marathon))

  20. #2770
    Writin' stuff ZeCanon's Avatar
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    GC always shows lower NP (or xPower) numbers. It's just calculated differently. Like most things PM, repeatability is more important than absolute accuracy.

    And I'm not a big fan of normalized power for anything other than load tracking anyway. It DEFINITELY should not be used for FTP estimation.
    Velo Magazine/VeloNews.com tech guy get in touch or hit me on the tweeter @CaleyFretz

  21. #2771
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    My xPower always comes out lower on my 20' tests than my AP, so I generally default to using AP.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  22. #2772
    going roundy round wanders's Avatar
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    I didn't think xPower could be lower than AP. I'm just glad to hear that GC is lowballing my NP. I knew I couldn't be that weak.
    Quote Originally Posted by CastIron View Post
    Damn.

  23. #2773
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Allen & Coggan states that it's okay to go over the limit when going up hills, but is there a percentage above the highest power for the zone over which you shouldn't go? For example, the high limit for my endurance and tempo zones are 190W and 230W, respectively. What would be a good number to shoot for when cresting a hill when during a work out in either zone?

    Also, say when I'm doing an endurance ride, the zone for which is between 142-190W, what's a good final average power to shoot for? I'm finding it hard to keep the average power (156 AP, 168 NP) up despite trying to hold it between 170-190W for most of the time. This pacing thing is gonna take me quite a bit to get used to...

  24. #2774
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
    Allen & Coggan states that it's okay to go over the limit when going up hills, but is there a percentage above the highest power for the zone over which you shouldn't go? For example, the high limit for my endurance and tempo zones are 190W and 230W, respectively. What would be a good number to shoot for when cresting a hill when during a work out in either zone?
    good question..as i guess you know given your location, we've got some pretty steep (though short) climbs around here that make it really difficult to keep the power down, even at <50 RPM. personally I just try to keep it under threshold, and that's usually doable (our zones/FTPs sound very similar, btw). i figure it's a good balance of not-too-hard but still get-you-over-it-quickly. i'd love to hear other opinions though.

    Also, say when I'm doing an endurance ride, the zone for which is between 142-190W, what's a good final average power to shoot for? I'm finding it hard to keep the average power (156 AP, 168 NP) up despite trying to hold it between 170-190W for most of the time. This pacing thing is gonna take me quite a bit to get used to...
    it's not just you. learning to keep the power steady is one thing, but even when you've got that down, you're bound to hit lights/stop signs/traffic/etc, at least around here. so, I've stopped worrying about it, and I pay less attention to the AP, and more attention to the total amount of time spent in the zone. my power is very variable (working on that), so e.g. for a 4hr endurance ride, I may only see 3hrs spent actually in zone 2. probably 20 minutes of that "lost hour" is in zone 3/4, another 15 minutes lost at various traffic inconveniences (lights, heavy traffic, etc), and the rest is just me losing focus and dipping in to zone 1.

    edit: my point is that for a zone 2 ride, you may be better off aiming for a % of time in the right zone, rather than an AP. i'd think that 80%+ in zone is pretty decent, for anything over 3 hours.
    Last edited by slynkie; 11-05-10 at 08:13 PM. Reason: add a point

  25. #2775
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    slynkie, thanks for the suggestions.

    I think it'd be easier for workouts in other zones given that you are already at SST & going to FTP power over a bump won't throw things off. Though it amazes me that it might take 300W or more to go over small bumps at 15mph.

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