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  1. #2851
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Short: First FTP test ... Failed

    Long: Since it has been raining for a few days I decided to introduce my Powertap to Mr Kurt Kinetic. I dont really enjoy using trainer and used it about three times last winter nevertheless I decided to do my first official Threshold test.

    Since the beginning I felt uncomfortable on my bike and it just felt weird. Not sure if it was the rain/humidity or the lack of a fan but I was sweating like a pig just warming up even though my garage doors were open. After about 20 min warmup I was about to do 5 min all out effort so I crank it up to about 500W and start hammering away. After about a minute I can see that my power is decreasing every second so I try harder to hold it around 400 but I wasnt able to do that. My heart rate went into the red zone and my legs were dying. After about 3 minutes my power was down to about 300W and I couldnt go any faster so I stopped.

    After I caught my breath I was thinking that I probably over did it and shouldnt go so hard at the beginning but decided that I will continue with the test and do the 20 min TT effort. Since I was sweating like a pig I decided to go "slower" and try to hold it at 300W for those 20 minutes even though that I believe my FTP is about 330 and was able to do some 370W 20min NP efforts during the group ride this month.

    Anyway, after about 5 minutes into my 20 min test at 300W I was not able to keep it there and start losing my power every second so I stopped again.

    So my first attempt at FTP test failed and I feel like a loser. Now I officially hate riding on a trainer and I'm not sure what it will take to get me back to ride a trainer.

    Any suggestions? What did I do wrong? Should I do it again or should I wait until January to be done with my base and attempt the FTP test outside? (That was my original plan) Should I also try my TT bike in stead of the road bike?

  2. #2852
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Welcome to the world of trainers. I notice a 8-10% decrease in what I can produce on my cyclops fluid 2 -vs- the outside. Part of it is cooling. Part of it is mental. Part of it is there are no "micro-rests" on the trainer.

    The odd thing is I can use a computrainer and match efforts pretty well (as long as cooling is covered), but my fluid 2 just kills me, which leads me to think the micro-rest thing is a big issue (the cyclops has a small flywheel with a real quick spin-down). The KK with their "pro flywheel" may be better.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  3. #2853
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    Welcome to the world of trainers. I notice a 8-10% decrease in what I can produce on my cyclops fluid 2 -vs- the outside. Part of it is cooling. Part of it is mental. Part of it is there are no "micro-rests" on the trainer.

    The odd thing is I can use a computrainer and match efforts pretty well (as long as cooling is covered), but my fluid 2 just kills me, which leads me to think the micro-rest thing is a big issue (the cyclops has a small flywheel with a real quick spin-down). The KK with their "pro flywheel" may be better.
    I guess it is the combination of the two, cooling and micro-rests. Better cooling is probably needed as it is humid and about 60F here in San Diego. BTW my KK is the Rock&Roll version with the flywheel.

  4. #2854
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Well so much for my idea on the flywheel being better with the kk.

    Cooling is a big deal too though. I died doing some intervals inside on the trainer on Saturday, only to find out the wife had cranked the heater up to 74. I had every fan turned on me too, but it still wasn't enough and after the 3rd one (15' each) I was done.

    Outside I can hold that particular wattage for an hour. Inside I was hurting at 15 minutes.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  5. #2855
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    Short: First FTP test ... Failed

    Long:

    Any suggestions? What did I do wrong? Should I do it again or should I wait until January to be done with my base and attempt the FTP test outside? (That was my original plan) Should I also try my TT bike in stead of the road bike?
    First off, 500w is insane for 20 minutes unless you're listed on one of the ProTour teams.

    I haven't broken 270 ever for 20 min. Recently I did 220-225w and that seems about right.

    Teammates (one a former pro NORBA racer) can do upwards of 380 normalized power for 20 min. For me that's absurd, literally almost 50% stronger than what I can do right now.

    So the first thing you did wrong was to go all out at the beginning. Instead you should look at some powertap files and see what kind of max 20 min numbers you put out. Mine are always lower than my FTP test number, i.e. I rarely average over 220w when I could do a 260+w 20 min effort. So if you're putting out, say, 450w for 20 min, you should aim at 500w. If you see 250w avg, aim at about 300-350w.

    Also something WR said a while ago, if you go 100% and then blow up, you pretty much end up maxed out (in the blown up part) at your threshold. If you're totally cooked and can hold 300w, that's about where you can aim.

    Hope this helps.
    cdr

  6. #2856
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    First off, 500w is insane for 20 minutes unless you're listed on one of the ProTour teams.

    I haven't broken 270 ever for 20 min. Recently I did 220-225w and that seems about right.

    Teammates (one a former pro NORBA racer) can do upwards of 380 normalized power for 20 min. For me that's absurd, literally almost 50% stronger than what I can do right now.

    So the first thing you did wrong was to go all out at the beginning. Instead you should look at some powertap files and see what kind of max 20 min numbers you put out. Mine are always lower than my FTP test number, i.e. I rarely average over 220w when I could do a 260+w 20 min effort. So if you're putting out, say, 450w for 20 min, you should aim at 500w. If you see 250w avg, aim at about 300-350w.

    Also something WR said a while ago, if you go 100% and then blow up, you pretty much end up maxed out (in the blown up part) at your threshold. If you're totally cooked and can hold 300w, that's about where you can aim.

    Hope this helps.
    cdr
    cdr
    First of all, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate your advice and BTW I love your blog and your race videos.

    Anyway, I dont have the book in front of me but the instructions from the Training with Power book were:

    20min warmup
    3x1m at 100rpm
    5min Max All out effort
    10min easy
    20min TT
    Cool down

    So the start at 500W was for the 5min all out effort. I knew I wouldnt be able to hold it there for those 5 minutes but I was hoping around 350-400 since WKO is showing my 5 minutes best in last 3 months is about 370W.

    As per the 20min TT attempt, I have 20min 367W NP this month and I did a full hour at over 300W few times this year so I thought the 20 minutes at 300W shouldnt be a problem.

    BTW I'm 6'5 192-4lb so those numbers are not that impressive anyway and I'm not even going into W/kg since I would have to lose another 15-20lb to be a climber. Got my first road bike 3 years ago (medical reasons and trying to lose weight) felt in love with cycling and last year I did just enough races to get out of the Cat 5.

    Ideally I would like to do some Masters 35+ racing but I know that with only 3 years in my legs I cant expect too much but as a training I rather get my butt kicked at the 35+ races than sitting on a trainer at my garage

  7. #2857
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    GoldenCheetah 2.0 is out: http://goldencheetah.org/
    And sadly the error GC makes when interpreting "time spent riding" with the Garmin Edge 500 hasn't been addressed. It doesn't account for stoppage time during a ride (e.g., 15 minute break at the convenience store), even when you hit stop and start on the computer, thus artificially extending time spent riding. Screws up some of the performance management figures methinks (e.g., TSS, NS, Avg power). Sigh...looks like its off to WKO+ for me unless someone corrects my (mis)understanding.

  8. #2858
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teetopkram View Post
    And sadly the error GC makes when interpreting "time spent riding" with the Garmin Edge 500 hasn't been addressed. It doesn't account for stoppage time during a ride (e.g., 15 minute break at the convenience store), even when you hit stop and start on the computer, thus artificially extending time spent riding. Screws up some of the performance management figures methinks (e.g., TSS, NS, Avg power). Sigh...looks like its off to WKO+ for me unless someone corrects my (mis)understanding.
    Hmm... This was an issue with TCX files, but I submitted a patch which fixed it. Basically, this was happening because there was some code to interpolate missing time (gaps) because the Edge 705's "smart recording" mode just left holes in the data.

    I know the edge 500 uses fit files. Are you importing fit files, or tcx files? If you're importing tcx files, you can "disable the interpolation of smart recording" feature by going under preferences and unchecking the "use garmin smart recording" option. Or you could also just change the default smart recording HW mark.

    If you're using fit files, let me know and I'll bang on the fit file parsing code to have the ability to bypass the smart recording as well. I can even build you a mac version.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  9. #2859
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    Hmm... This was an issue with TCX files, but I submitted a patch which fixed it. Basically, this was happening because there was some code to interpolate missing time (gaps) because the Edge 705's "smart recording" mode just left holes in the data.

    I know the edge 500 uses fit files. Are you importing fit files, or tcx files? If you're importing tcx files, you can "disable the interpolation of smart recording" feature by going under preferences and unchecking the "use garmin smart recording" option. Or you could also just change the default smart recording HW mark.

    If you're using fit files, let me know and I'll bang on the fit file parsing code to have the ability to bypass the smart recording as well. I can even build you a mac version.
    Thanks Ken. I knew you were working on a patch to fix this...I just figured it didn't make it into final code. I always download into Garmin Training Center, then export as a tcx file to desktop, where I then import into Golden Cheetah. I haven't disable the interpolation of smart recording, so I will try that first. If that doesn't work, I will change the default smart recording within the Garmin unit. If that doesn't work, I'll try just importing the fit file. Will let you know which if any option works.

    Thanks for the advice, and for the offer to build a diff version. Hope your "base" training is going OK. My coach continues to try to convince me that Florida racing is more like track racing than road racing, hence the days of 5 hour Z2 rides are not necessary.

  10. #2860
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    Are you importing fit files, or tcx files? If you're importing tcx files, you can "disable the interpolation of smart recording" feature by going under preferences and unchecking the "use garmin smart recording" option.
    Worked like a charm...thanks! Now I have to go back in and reload all my training files, because I'm OCD about that stuff! Cause we all know how accurate a performance management chart has to be for Category 4 racing

  11. #2861
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Gonna take about 10 days off bike due to work, the bruise and stay at home (where i have no bike). I'll try to do aerobic activities while home, but does anyone have suggestions on how i should plan my workouts when i return?

    Friel suggests one to two weeks of base before resuming prior training load. I was thinking of getting a good diet of SST and Tempo to build up long term stress (essentially Base II). Anybody sees these plans as conflicting? The chronic training load after 10 days off will be what it was about fifteen days ago, but i wonder how long i should wait before doing the intensity i was doing fifteen days ago.

    Thanks in advance

  12. #2862
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Can someone tell me the fastest Sampling Rate of the Quarq?

    Is this dependent on the head unit? If so, are there any that are faster than 1"?

    Thanks

  13. #2863
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teetopkram View Post
    Worked like a charm...thanks! Now I have to go back in and reload all my training files, because I'm OCD about that stuff! Cause we all know how accurate a performance management chart has to be for Category 4 racing
    Actually, you don't need to reload a single thing -- GC reads each TCX file whenever you look at a ride for any purpose. Just change your CP, then change it back and all of your performance metrics will be reset to the correct data.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  14. #2864
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Can someone tell me the fastest Sampling Rate of the Quarq?

    Is this dependent on the head unit? If so, are there any that are faster than 1"?

    Thanks
    I think PCVII can do 1/2 second sampling rates, but I'm not sure. New cinqos do work with a PCVII though, and quarqs that were made within the last year should be able to get a firmware update (you'll need to call Quarq).
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  15. #2865
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
    Gonna take about 10 days off bike due to work, the bruise and stay at home (where i have no bike). I'll try to do aerobic activities while home, but does anyone have suggestions on how i should plan my workouts when i return?

    Friel suggests one to two weeks of base before resuming prior training load. I was thinking of getting a good diet of SST and Tempo to build up long term stress (essentially Base II). Anybody sees these plans as conflicting? The chronic training load after 10 days off will be what it was about fifteen days ago, but i wonder how long i should wait before doing the intensity i was doing fifteen days ago.

    Thanks in advance
    I kind of jumped in with both feet after a two week break. But I'm a mutant and glutton for punishment.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  16. #2866
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    BTW, I'm curious why you're not just importing the raw FIT files? They should work fine.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  17. #2867
    Senior Member kleinboogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    5min Max All out effort
    What is usually unclear when trainers say this is Max effort for the time period. So it's what you can sustain for 5 minutes which obviously 500W would be incredible. Advice I've heard is to take 15-20 seconds to ramp up to the power you can hold. GL

  18. #2868
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    After I failed yesterday to finish the FTP test my Cat 5 ego was badly bruised so the plan for today was very simple. No big goals, no 5 minutes all out, no breaks, no fancy stuff. Just good 30 min warmup, slowly increasing the power output and than try to hold the 300W for 10 minutes.

    Happy to report that I was able to finish those 10 minutes and could probably do another 10 but my mind was so set at 10 minutes that I was just happy to finish it and will leave the standard 20 minutes test for next time. At the end of those 10min I was feeling OK so I did one more minute hard at about 400W. Since I was steadily increasing the power and did the one 400W minute at the end I accomplished 20min at 298W but thats wasnt the plan so who cares.


    Peak 10min (316 watts):
    Duration: 10:03
    Work: 190 kJ
    TSS: 15.4 (intensity factor 0.96)
    Norm Power: 317
    VI: 1
    Pw:HR: -0.94%
    Pa:HR: 0.88%
    Distance: 8.1 mi
    Elevation Gain: 30 ft
    Elevation Loss: 0 ft
    Grade: 0.1 % (31 ft)
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 254 417 316 watts
    Heart Rate: 165 180 171 bpm
    Cadence: 87 121 95 rpm
    Speed: 45.5 53.2 48.4 mph
    Pace 1:08 1:19 1:14 min/mi
    Altitude: 609 641 627 ft
    Crank Torque: 212 372 283 lb-in

    Peak 20min (298 watts):
    Duration: 20:03
    Work: 358 kJ
    TSS: 27.8 (intensity factor 0.912)
    Norm Power: 301
    VI: 1.01
    Pw:HR: -3.23%
    Pa:HR: 1.29%
    Distance: 15.577 mi
    Elevation Gain: 61 ft
    Elevation Loss: 0 ft
    Grade: 0.1 % (63 ft)
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 251 417 298 watts
    Heart Rate: 147 180 164 bpm
    Cadence: 84 121 95 rpm
    Speed: 43.4 53.2 46.6 mph
    Pace 1:08 1:23 1:17 min/mi
    Altitude: 576 641 611 ft
    Crank Torque: 212 372 264 lb-in

    Peak 30min (280 watts):
    Duration: 30:01
    Work: 504 kJ
    TSS: 37.7 (intensity factor 0.868)
    Norm Power: 286
    VI: 1.02
    Pw:HR: -3.02%
    Pa:HR: 5.48%
    Distance: 22.553 mi
    Elevation Gain: 110 ft
    Elevation Loss: 0 ft
    Grade: 0.1 % (113 ft)
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 186 417 280 watts
    Heart Rate: 39 180 156 bpm
    Cadence: 84 121 94 rpm
    Speed: 38.2 53.2 45.1 mph
    Pace 1:08 1:34 1:20 min/mi
    Altitude: 527 641 592 ft
    Crank Torque: 185 372 252 lb-in
    Attached Images Attached Images

  19. #2869
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    The point of the 5 min all out before the test is to use up your anaerobic capacity, so your 20 min is aerobic only.

    If you don't do that your 20 min will contain some anaerobic work, making the number high by some amount. That may not me much if you are like me and don't have much anaerobic capacity.

  20. #2870
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    The point of the 5 min all out before the test is to use up your anaerobic capacity, so your 20 min is aerobic only.

    If you don't do that your 20 min will contain some anaerobic work, making the number high by some amount. That may not me much if you are like me and don't have much anaerobic capacity.
    I hear ya. So what is the best approach to pace yourself for 5 minutes all out effort? Obviously yesterday I started too hard and cooked myself after 3 minutes in so I guess super hard start is not the best way.

  21. #2871
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    I hear ya. So what is the best approach to pace yourself for 5 minutes all out effort? Obviously yesterday I started too hard and cooked myself after 3 minutes in so I guess super hard start is not the best way.
    You just have to learn how to pace it. It's a good exercise in general anyway. Try to project your 5' power from other efforts and tests you've done. Start by targeting that estimate. If you have more left at the end, then bump it up.

  22. #2872
    Senior Member Jancouver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    You just have to learn how to pace it. It's a good exercise in general anyway. Try to project your 5' power from other efforts and tests you've done. Start by targeting that estimate. If you have more left at the end, then bump it up.
    How much higher is "usually" 5min over 20min or the threshold? If my 5min normalized power during a group ride this month was 407W should I go for that? Actually just looked at my summer numbers and I do have there a 5min power at 405W so I guess the 400W should be my target. The question is, if I really do steady 400W will I use all my anaerobic power or do I have to go all out the last minute to use it?

  23. #2873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    The question is, if I really do steady 400W will I use all my anaerobic power or do I have to go all out the last minute to use it?
    You can't completely exhaust your anaerobic capacity as it is going to recharge a little anyways in the 10min break between your 5 and 20 min intervals. Just be consistent when you're testing.

  24. #2874
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    I kind of jumped in with both feet after a two week break. But I'm a mutant and glutton for punishment.
    Ken, thanks for the suggestion, i think i'll do a bit of tempo to get things ramped up. I'd go bats!ht insane if i were to go back to base 1.

  25. #2875
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jancouver View Post
    How much higher is "usually" 5min over 20min or the threshold? If my 5min normalized power during a group ride this month was 407W should I go for that? Actually just looked at my summer numbers and I do have there a 5min power at 405W so I guess the 400W should be my target. The question is, if I really do steady 400W will I use all my anaerobic power or do I have to go all out the last minute to use it?
    damn bro you are thinking about this a lot. just go as hard as you can for 20 minutes (target 300w from the data you posted previously). take 95% of that value of your ftp. Probably not perfect, but as long as you use the same method for tracking purposes it is fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

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