Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-05-09, 05:58 PM   #301
mattm
**** that
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Bikes:
Posts: 13,740
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcates View Post
sorry to change the subject, but i was curious about what sort of TSS numbers one should be aiming for in terms of hard days, easy days and weekly?
my understanding is that a TSS of 100 is equivalent to an all-out 40k TT.

found a little guideline here:

The following scale can be used as an approximate guide:

Less than 150 - low (recovery generally complete by following day)
150-300 - medium (some residual fatigue may be present the next day, but gone by 2nd day)
300-450 - high (some residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days)
Greater than 450 - very high (residual fatigue lasting several days likely)
__________________
cat 1.

blog
mattm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-09, 06:03 PM   #302
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT
Posts: 28,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcates View Post
sorry to change the subject, but i was curious about what sort of TSS numbers one should be aiming for in terms of hard days, easy days and weekly?
There is no set amount to "shoot for". What works for one person may be way too high for another. TSS is a combination of your volume and intensity so it's going to be affected by how much riding you are doing, and how well conditioned you are to maintain intensity over that duration. Rather than thinking in terms of a TSS number, you can think about your ATL and CTL and build your CTL by increasing your ATL for a few weeks, then back off and recover, build, recover, repeat. If you try to increase too quickly shooting for a number you are likely to just burn yourself out or not be able to do the appropriate intensity for your workouts.
umd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-09, 10:46 AM   #303
tombailey
awaiting uci approval
 
tombailey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Alexandria, VA
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix RC 06
Posts: 961
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
What difference does the 12mm axle of the Pro+ vs. the 15mm axle of the SL+ make? Are there any other diffferences besides weight/material?

Thanks,
Tom
tombailey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-09, 11:00 AM   #304
esammuli
Glimmers of form
 
esammuli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Bikes: Cannondale SystemSix 3, Specialized Stumpjumper M4 Comp
Posts: 1,542
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The 15mm axle is stiffer.
esammuli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-09, 11:01 AM   #305
tombailey
awaiting uci approval
 
tombailey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Alexandria, VA
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix RC 06
Posts: 961
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by esammuli View Post
The 15mm axle is stiffer.
Is it stronger?
tombailey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-09, 11:11 AM   #306
esammuli
Glimmers of form
 
esammuli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Bikes: Cannondale SystemSix 3, Specialized Stumpjumper M4 Comp
Posts: 1,542
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Possibly, but I'm not positive on that one. An interesting tidbit that most people don't realize is that for several years many pro's were using custom carbon axles due to the lack of stiffness of the standard 12mm axle. The increase in axle size also lets CycleOps use a bearing with a larger diameter inside race which apparently increases the lifespan of the bearing.

edit: I know the guy who did most of the design work for the hub internals for new generation SL+ and SLC+. When I was spec'ing a new custom Pro+ build from him he strongly recommended 'upgrading' from the 12mm alloy axle to the steel mtb axle. He's a smart guy with an extremely good reputation so I took his advise.

Last edited by esammuli; 03-06-09 at 11:17 AM.
esammuli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-09, 11:15 AM   #307
tombailey
awaiting uci approval
 
tombailey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Alexandria, VA
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix RC 06
Posts: 961
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank-you
tombailey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-09, 03:01 PM   #308
Gluteus
Maximus
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Bikes:
Posts: 1,843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just recently started using a PT.
This is recovery ride (trainer, same resistance, 60'). I notice that after about 5 minutes I sustain a stable power, but the recorded speed drops steadily until about 30' when it becomes stable. I have seen the same pattern 3 times.
The questions is: at the same power output, with the same resistance, why would the speed drop ?

Gluteus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-09, 03:09 PM   #309
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
It's not the same resistance. The trainer is turning all of the energy from your tire into heat, sound, and air motion. The heat inside the resistance unit is probably causing parts to expand, which will increase the resistance.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-09, 03:40 PM   #310
Gluteus
Maximus
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Bikes:
Posts: 1,843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
It's not the same resistance. The trainer is turning all of the energy from your tire into heat, sound, and air motion. The heat inside the resistance unit is probably causing parts to expand, which will increase the resistance.
Ahh! Thanks.
Gluteus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-09, 07:40 PM   #311
ijgoodwin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin
Bikes:
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Question for smarter PowerTap users than me. I have a power file from a ride where I didn't realize that I needed to zero the torque, so for about the first 80-90% of the file, the torque reading is 1.13 above where it should be. So, I can subtract 1.13 from the torque values to fix those, but what do I do to fix the power data, as the power values where torque should be zero are not consistent? Do I use the average, max, or some other level of the power values where torque will be zero?
ijgoodwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-09, 07:44 PM   #312
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT
Posts: 28,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You multiply the torque x wheel rpm to get new power values.
umd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-09, 07:46 PM   #313
ijgoodwin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin
Bikes:
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by umd View Post
You multiply the torque x wheel rpm to get new power values.
Good deal! thanks
ijgoodwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-09, 08:59 PM   #314
irish pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: new paltz, ny
Bikes: kestrel talon, Ultegra group,AC sprint 350 wheelset, Trek alpha sl 2500, 105 group,Mavic ssl sl wheelset, ridley crossbow, 105 rear der, single front, Redline Conquest, tiagra group, Fuji single speed, Mongoose Mtn bike,
Posts: 629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For those of you that use golden cheetah or training peaks, what are the advantages over usung poweragent?
irish pat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-09, 09:32 PM   #315
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Bikes:
Posts: 20,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Prettier graphs?
ridethecliche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-09, 10:16 PM   #316
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by umd View Post
You multiply the torque x wheel rpm to get new power values.
Close, but power = torque * angular speed (not rpm). In MKS units, angular speed is radians/second.

In the CSV, just set up the following cells:

Code:
m/s                    circumference    rot/s                rad/s            Watts
(kmph*1000)/(60*60)    2.096        (m/s)/(circumference)    (rot/s)*2*3.14159    torque*rad/s
...or, paste this in row 2 of the .csv (to the right of the last column), and extend it down:
Code:
=B2*((C2*1000)/(60*60)/2.096)*2*3.14159
B2 is torque, and C2 is km/h, and 2.096 is your circumference on the head unit x 1000

Last edited by waterrockets; 03-17-09 at 10:19 PM.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-09, 08:48 AM   #317
ijgoodwin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin
Bikes:
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Close, but power = torque * angular speed (not rpm). In MKS units, angular speed is radians/second.

In the CSV, just set up the following cells:

Code:
m/s                    circumference    rot/s                rad/s            Watts
(kmph*1000)/(60*60)    2.096        (m/s)/(circumference)    (rot/s)*2*3.14159    torque*rad/s
...or, paste this in row 2 of the .csv (to the right of the last column), and extend it down:
Code:
=B2*((C2*1000)/(60*60)/2.096)*2*3.14159
B2 is torque, and C2 is km/h, and 2.096 is your circumference on the head unit x 1000
Very helpful! Much easier than going through and trying to recalculate a bunch of columns.
ijgoodwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-09, 09:46 AM   #318
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijgoodwin View Post
Very helpful! Much easier than going through and trying to recalculate a bunch of columns.
I also am thinking more clearly since waking up, and reduced it down to one magic number:
=B2*C2*0.832694550466497

If you have a 700x23c on the rear, that will cover it for you with a circumference of 2096. If your circ is different, scale the magic number the appropriate % to account for the difference from 2096 (1% smaller circumference = 1% smaller magic number).
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-09, 10:18 AM   #319
Apus^2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Looking for my right leg muscles.
Bikes: 2000 Cannondale CAAD3 Triple 105/Ultegra
Posts: 1,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
you messed up your sig digs.
Apus^2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-09, 05:01 AM   #320
Hocam
Ho-Jahm
 
Hocam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Manchester, NH
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Maybe this has been addressed before, but when do I use NP and when do I use average power? I know you should use it for 60' power but what else? Coggans book seems to imply anything over 30 seconds is fair game but I've read some comments here asking for average power instead of NP for short durations.

For instance, my 5' max with average power is 289 but 360 with NP. 360 seems really high given an FTP of 245..

What about 20 min?
Hocam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-09, 06:18 AM   #321
procrit
carbon is too light
 
procrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Bikes: Cannondale Road / Orbea TT
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since NP is based off of an individuals own specific FTP, AP is a much more reliable way to compare two peoples power.

Example:

If my FTP was 360, and I averaged 360 for 5 minutes, my normalized 5 minute power would be 360. I would probably be WAY faster than you during those 5 minutes, even though your normalized power was 360, because your average power was only 289.

Normalized power is a great way to compare your own efforts from day to day, but are almost pointless to use when comparing up to other people.
procrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-09, 06:42 AM   #322
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Normalized power is best for showing you how "hard" a workout was. It is the basis for your Training Stress Score, which leads to chronic and acute training load calculations. All this helps you track how hard you're training.

For 60 minute NP, it can potentially let you know that it's time to re-test FTP (if you see a big jump), but it's not intended to be a means of estimating FTP on its own.

You have to watch it when your NP is much higher than your average:
- For my last 5' test, my AP/NP were 452W/446W (yes, NP was lower because of a hard start).
- For my last 1' test, and the following 4 minutes of coasting, my AP/NP was 177W/475W.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-09, 07:09 AM   #323
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Bikes:
Posts: 3,213
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by procrit View Post
Since NP is based off of an individuals own specific FTP,...
No it's not. Normalized power is the fourth norm of power. It depends only on power and time. http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/coggan.pdf
asgelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-09, 04:24 PM   #324
Dubbayoo
Senior Member
 
Dubbayoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Atlanta
Bikes: Pedal Force QS3
Posts: 7,681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Why can't I drag 'n drop charts in TrainingPeaks? It worked with the Joe Example guy but not my profile.

Actually I just can't seem to move the summary chart. I want that at the end.

Last edited by Dubbayoo; 03-23-09 at 04:36 PM.
Dubbayoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-09, 05:19 PM   #325
jonestr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ABQ, NM
Bikes: Neuvation F100, Surly Cross Check, Van Dessel Holeshot
Posts: 1,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am sure this has been debated before, but I will bring it up any way.

NP is a method for smoothing the data. It is supposedly consistent with some physiology that is never brought up. It seems like there should be a better way to smooth the data than just taking powers and doing moving averages. If you assume that all the noise is gaussian then your average power should be the smoothed power for a large data set.

Is anyone with me in thinking NP is a bit arbitrary or am I out on a limb here?
jonestr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:38 AM.