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  1. #3626
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Cross training question: The gym here has a Concept 2 rowing machine which can display wattage. I'm going to assume that it's fairly accurate -- if only because a rower would be similarly power obsessed as a cyclist.

    I'm thinking I ought to shoot for a number that's a bit higher than what I'd do on my bike since I'm using my whole body rather than just my lower half. How much higher? 25%? 50%?

    Or maybe just go by perceived effort until I get a feel for what's hard/easy/sustainable/interval....?

    Thoughts?
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  2. #3627
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    Quote Originally Posted by kvangundy View Post
    I tried "peaking" for some summer racing (road/track)...but, as the taper period finished, I didn't "bounce" back into my peak wattages or better than pre-training cycling peaks. My season is attemptedly dual peaked, I have collegiate racing from feb-may (peak 1) then summer track/road june-sept(peak 2).

    I lost a bit of weight (185-->175) over the training process (12 weeks) but also lost some W off the top (-~200W) my w/kg also dropped. I retested to see if I had over trained and peaked later but...no dice, still -200 off collegiate season peak wattages. I trained harder, lifted heavier, and am very disappointed in my body crapping out on me.

    I missed out on base this year, didn't seem to hurt me during collegiate racing...but after a long enough season, can a lack of base ruin end season peak wattages?
    It's "base building" time for collegiate riders, should I build base? or take a break because my body has obviously had too long of a season and needs extended recovery?
    see the off-season fitness thread in the forum
    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Cross training question: The gym here has a Concept 2 rowing machine which can display wattage. I'm going to assume that it's fairly accurate -- if only because a rower would be similarly power obsessed as a cyclist.

    I'm thinking I ought to shoot for a number that's a bit higher than what I'd do on my bike since I'm using my whole body rather than just my lower half. How much higher? 25%? 50%?

    Or maybe just go by perceived effort until I get a feel for what's hard/easy/sustainable/interval....?

    Thoughts?
    put on a hr belt & do a threshold test.

  3. #3628
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Cross training question: The gym here has a Concept 2 rowing machine which can display wattage. I'm going to assume that it's fairly accurate -- if only because a rower would be similarly power obsessed as a cyclist.

    I'm thinking I ought to shoot for a number that's a bit higher than what I'd do on my bike since I'm using my whole body rather than just my lower half. How much higher? 25%? 50%?

    Or maybe just go by perceived effort until I get a feel for what's hard/easy/sustainable/interval....?

    Thoughts?
    As an high level ex-rower who has done eleventy million miles on the erg and hates that damn machine

    No, we don't typically use watts, we go by 500m split. The only time we use watts are for peak tests, lactate tests and Vo2 tests (IME) as it is more accurate than splits.

    As a big guy (210lb), my max wattage for 1 stroke (three stroke build up) was around 1200 watts (about a 1:07 500m split). My hour on the rowing machine, at 22 strokes per minute, was around 350W (1:40 split). Some other time/watt values are:

    6 min: about 500W
    6k (19-ish minutes): 410W

    On the bike I am capable of a much higher peak wattage, not sure of my hour wattage on the bike yet as I just got my PM and have been sick all week However, I am nowhere near the shape now on the bike as I was 5 years ago when I was rowing.

    My guess (until I get my power meter working) would be to start off at a lower wattage. I'm guessing that I could do 250W for an hour on the rowing machine now and I'm guessing my ftp on the bike will be around the 325 mark. Give it a shot and go on perceived effort. Also note that if you've never rowed before, technique is very important, both for developing power and for preventing injury. Get someone who knows what they are doing to show you. And don't go off at 30 strokes pr minute
    Last edited by PCS2; 10-14-11 at 09:44 AM.

  4. #3629
    Faster than yesterday
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    What's the best way to view power during riding so that the number is actually useful for pacing? I've got 3s smoothing on, but it still jumps around quite a bit, especially with the winds we had here today.

    In other words, if I am going for SST, how do you make sure you're putting out the right amount of power? Apply more smoothing to the displayed wattage? Or do you just kinda make sure the average wattage is in the right range?

    Also, the Powertap virtual cadence sucks. In a 50 min ride I've got at least 50 bad data points (as found by GC). I guess that's only 1 out 60, on average, but I know I wasn't spinning at 250 rpm; I've got 10s smoothing on the cadence display so it actually makes sense. It does work well enough for me to notice in GC that when I was going for peak 5s, my cadence actually dipped at first, meaning that I was probably shifting up inappropriately and costing myself some watts from lower RPM while trying to grind it out instead.

    As an aside, my FTP appears to be about what I expected (not great, but then I haven't been riding outside of my commute), but I'm actually not as much of a sprinting weenie as I thought.
    Last edited by tadawdy; 10-14-11 at 04:49 PM.

  5. #3630
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadawdy View Post
    In other words, if I am going for SST, how do you make sure you're putting out the right amount of power? Apply more smoothing to the displayed wattage? Or do you just kinda make sure the average wattage is in the right range?
    IMO, targeting the average over any lengthy interval is a bad idea. You might as well use a HRM. The benefit of the PM is that you can target your workout precisely, and see and adjust what you are doing -now-. If you are targeting a specific range, your average is off that, and you start adjusting to compensate, you are no longer exercising the targeted range. For short intervals, the average is of value in telling you what to do, and of course it is of value in analysis. I do use it as a target when I've been told "do reps until your average drops below XXX", because I want to do as many as I can above the target. Otherwise, the 3s smoothing is golden.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #3631
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    In other words, set the PM for 3s smoothing, and work harder on smoothing out your pedal stroke.

  7. #3632
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    IMO, targeting the average over any lengthy interval is a bad idea. You might as well use a HRM. The benefit of the PM is that you can target your workout precisely, and see and adjust what you are doing -now-. If you are targeting a specific range, your average is off that, and you start adjusting to compensate, you are no longer exercising the targeted range. For short intervals, the average is of value in telling you what to do, and of course it is of value in analysis. I do use it as a target when I've been told "do reps until your average drops below XXX", because I want to do as many as I can above the target. Otherwise, the 3s smoothing is golden.
    I have been thinking about this "training is specific zones" idea. It is really hard for me to stay in one zone for any extended period of time because of steep hills around where I live. It is impossible not to go neuromuscular during these climbs, or lower the cadence to 40 and still it is above threshold.

    What does one do in these cases? thanks
    Beyond the very extreme of fatigue and distress, we may find amounts of strength and power we never dreamed ourselves to own; Sources of strength never taxed at all because we never pushed through the obstruction.
    -William James

  8. #3633
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCS2 View Post
    As an high level ex-rower who has done eleventy million miles on the erg and hates that damn machine

    No, we don't typically use watts, we go by 500m split. The only time we use watts are for peak tests, lactate tests and Vo2 tests (IME) as it is more accurate than splits.

    As a big guy (210lb), my max wattage for 1 stroke (three stroke build up) was around 1200 watts (about a 1:07 500m split). My hour on the rowing machine, at 22 strokes per minute, was around 350W (1:40 split). Some other time/watt values are:

    6 min: about 500W
    6k (19-ish minutes): 410W

    On the bike I am capable of a much higher peak wattage, not sure of my hour wattage on the bike yet as I just got my PM and have been sick all week However, I am nowhere near the shape now on the bike as I was 5 years ago when I was rowing.

    My guess (until I get my power meter working) would be to start off at a lower wattage. I'm guessing that I could do 250W for an hour on the rowing machine now and I'm guessing my ftp on the bike will be around the 325 mark. Give it a shot and go on perceived effort. Also note that if you've never rowed before, technique is very important, both for developing power and for preventing injury. Get someone who knows what they are doing to show you. And don't go off at 30 strokes pr minute
    Excellent. Thanks. And thanks for letting me know I was going too fast.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  9. #3634
    HMF
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    Question: Will this heart rate strap from garmin work with my wired powertap?

  10. #3635
    grilled cheesus aham23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    In other words, set the PM for 3s smoothing, and work harder on smoothing out your pedal stroke.
    i would agree. it comes with time and practice. also, for longer outside SST stuff you could look at NP at the end of the ride to determine where the effort was. later.

  11. #3636
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Excellent. Thanks. And thanks for letting me know I was going too fast.
    Who knows, you might be able to hold 100% ftp pace on the erg. Give it a try and let us know. Once I get better (damn kids ) I will try to get some numbers.....but I hate that rowing machine.......it gives me nightmares

  12. #3637
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Like_Bike View Post
    I have been thinking about this "training is specific zones" idea. It is really hard for me to stay in one zone for any extended period of time because of steep hills around where I live. It is impossible not to go neuromuscular during these climbs, or lower the cadence to 40 and still it is above threshold.

    What does one do in these cases? thanks
    Times like that you just have to exceed your target. Or take PEDs to boost your FTP so you don't have to work as hard. I just wouldn't change my target for the rest of the ride. When you crest the hill, go back to the range you were targeting, instead of reducing the target to make up for the extra effort. My coach agrees with that, so it isn't just this newb offering his opinion, but others may think differently about it.

    Of course minimizing your power (and HR) on a hill is an acquired skill. I am much better at that, and at smoothing things out in general, than I was when I started. I'd get a workout assignment and say "WTF? No way I can go up the hill and stay z3!" I got better. Oh wait. I also lost ~30 pounds. Hmmmm...
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCS2 View Post
    Interesting, thanks guys. I think I might grab the 500 with the wheel sensor, although my OCD for clean looking bikes hates the magnets
    You don't need the wheel magnet with your PT, the 500 will take speed from the PT and cadence from the GSC-10. You can also swap in a normal wheel with a magnet.

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Right, but a month ago wireless pt wheels were over a grand.
    I agree that $350 might be on the high side now. The Pro+/SL+ price drops have probably trickled down to the used market by now, but the CC deal had been available for a week or two at the time of that thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by HMF View Post
    Question: Will this heart rate strap from garmin work with my wired powertap?
    It depends how old your PT is. If it's fairly new, it might work with an ANT+ strap. Check your manual, I guess. The oldest PTs worked with non-coded straps, and there was a proprietary CycleOps 2.4 coded strap somewhere along the line.

  14. #3639
    HMF
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    Thanks. It's fairly new. The manual says ANT+. Thanks

  15. #3640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny Fred View Post
    You don't need the wheel magnet with your PT, the 500 will take speed from the PT and cadence from the GSC-10. You can also swap in a normal wheel with a magnet.
    Thanks, I didn't know that the 500 could get speed from the PT, but it makes sense

  16. #3641
    Senior Member dhale50's Avatar
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    Just started doing SST workouts on the trainer about a week ago. Does your cadence drop indoors for the same power output outdoors? I can train outdoors at 95rpm and hold 90%FTP with no problem. But inside, I am spinning my ass off at 95 and the power is barely holding in that range. If I shift up and drop my cadence to say 85-87, I can Sweet Spot great.

    I have taken the recommended steps for indoor stuff:

    1. Big fan (Air King 20 inch). Thing is basically a wind tunnel, but I still sweat a lot!
    2. Made sure to only press the flywheel on the trainer tire enough to avoid squeaking.

    Is the cadence a big deal indoors? Am I ok as long as I hit the power numbers I'm trying to hit? Thanks.

  17. #3642
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhale50 View Post
    Just started doing SST workouts on the trainer about a week ago. Does your cadence drop indoors for the same power output outdoors? I can train outdoors at 95rpm and hold 90%FTP with no problem. But inside, I am spinning my ass off at 95 and the power is barely holding in that range. If I shift up and drop my cadence to say 85-87, I can Sweet Spot great.

    I have taken the recommended steps for indoor stuff:

    1. Big fan (Air King 20 inch). Thing is basically a wind tunnel, but I still sweat a lot!
    2. Made sure to only press the flywheel on the trainer tire enough to avoid squeaking.

    Is the cadence a big deal indoors? Am I ok as long as I hit the power numbers I'm trying to hit? Thanks.
    This is one reason why i love rollers.
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  18. #3643
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    mechanical question here,
    I just regreased the skewer on my Pro+ which has about 4000+ miles on it.
    I noticed there is a little play when I grab the non drive side.
    Does this look like time for bearing overhaul ?
    see pic

  19. #3644
    Senior Member dhale50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    This is one reason why i love rollers.
    Well the trainer will have to do right now, just wondering if anyone else has experienced this.

  20. #3645
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhale50 View Post
    Just started doing SST workouts on the trainer about a week ago. Does your cadence drop indoors for the same power output outdoors? I can train outdoors at 95rpm and hold 90%FTP with no problem. But inside, I am spinning my ass off at 95 and the power is barely holding in that range. If I shift up and drop my cadence to say 85-87, I can Sweet Spot great.

    I have taken the recommended steps for indoor stuff:

    1. Big fan (Air King 20 inch). Thing is basically a wind tunnel, but I still sweat a lot!
    2. Made sure to only press the flywheel on the trainer tire enough to avoid squeaking.

    Is the cadence a big deal indoors? Am I ok as long as I hit the power numbers I'm trying to hit? Thanks.
    I notice my cadence more indoors than outdoors. I think its due to noticing the bike more indoors whereas outside, I'd watching the road in front of me or checking out the scenery. But, I would like to get a 11-21 cassette if I can find a good deal on one for inside.

  21. #3646
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Worn out PT bearings are grindy, not loose. Are you sure all is tightened around the axle? I'd ask for specific things, but there are maybe five unique designs for axles that are being used. You might see how it feels when mounted. Is there any play when you move the rim side to side?

  22. #3647
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    i cant wait till i get my powertap back from saris
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  23. #3648
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    Here a Q for the PT guys.

    I've got an 2011 SL+ build with a campy freehub. Can I buy a shimano hub and pop it on for my shimano TT bike?

    I had assumed that it wouldn't b a problem, but in the manual it shows two separate/shims for the shimano and campy veresion.

    See page 36

    http://www.saris.com/pdfManuals/361.pdf

    TIA

  24. #3649
    grilled cheesus aham23's Avatar
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    my quarq and 500 have been working flawless for a year. two weeks ago i start getting power drop outs about an hour into a couple rides. figure its the battery so i replace it. next ride out more drop outs. i upgrade the 500 firmware, hard reset it, clean the bike and crank, ect... ride it this past Sunday and get one or two very short drop outs. back on that bike again today and no power at all. the 500 cant find the quarq. well, with 30 minutes left in the ride the power meter is detected & i get power readings. just when i get home the 500 tells me my quarq battery is low. WTF?

    doesnt seem to be the 500. at first i though the quarq was not coming out of sleep mode. now i think it might be ON all the time and draining the battery. i just reached 500 hours for the year and this is the 3rd battery. maybe the battery isnt making good contact thus producing low battery power issues......

    anyone have any ideas? much thanks. later.

  25. #3650
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    Golden Cheeta Question...
    I have a PT pro + and a Garmin 500. Is there an easier way to upload Garmin data, rather than export the tcx file from the garmin site?

    Also, I have a "race bike" and a commuter bike. They are both road bikes, however the commuter is 9spd, has shorter cranks than I'd like, isn't fit to me that well, etc. I was wondering if I should attach my Garmin and record the miles during my winter commuting, or just chalk it up to Z1,Z2 base and forget about the 40mi/week it tacks on?
    Current plan is just to not record that data.
    Nothing should come between you and your chamois -- lawkd

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