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  1. #4001
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    Quote Originally Posted by plantrob View Post
    But I'm still curious if my 5MP/20MP ratio tells me my strength is more in mid-range than in long-range power. There's little doubt that my short-range (5s) power stinks
    Well, as echappist points out, that's what the Power Profile chart was originally intended to address. Most people use it to figure out what cat they "ought" to be in, but Andy's original intent was that we'd circle our watts/kg for each column, connect the circles with lines, and eyeball whether those connecting lines were flat, sloped, or curved. Of course, no one does that -- everyone treats it like an ewang chart.

    I've never really been a fan of the power profile chart.

  2. #4002
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    Well, as echappist points out, that's what the Power Profile chart was originally intended to address. Most people use it to figure out what cat they "ought" to be in, but Andy's original intent was that we'd circle our watts/kg for each column, connect the circles with lines, and eyeball whether those connecting lines were flat, sloped, or curved. Of course, no one does that -- everyone treats it like an ewang chart.

    I've never really been a fan of the power profile chart.
    The power profile chart is what got me winning races.

    I thought I was a sprinter. Only race I ever won was a 1' uphill finish (I'm an idiot for not putting 2 + 2 together here). I got 3rd-5th in a lot of bunch sprints, but never won one. Didn't make sense, because I could outsprint everyone I ever trained with in a drag race, but it didn't translate to race results (since they're not drag races).

    When I got my PowerTap, after a month or so, I learned how to truly test 1' power, and had finally put together a real power profile. It was not a sprinter's profile. Height order was 1', 5", 5', FTP. The 1' circle was waaaay up above the others.

    Hmm.

    I decided in my next crit to attack the bell (~1km course). All-out every pedal stroke. I won, and was passed about 3m over the line. I won my next two crits like that. Without the power profile chart, I may never have had the logic to figure out what my real strength was. As a result, I also stopped training my sprint for a season, and really focused on FTP, and that has helped me get into winning breaks... and the kilo power is really nice to have against a bunch of TT guys who don't know your power profile.

  3. #4003
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    The power profile chart is what got me winning races.
    Very nice. You used it in the way intended and learned something you wouldn't otherwise have figured out (well, maybe you would've figured it out but perhaps not for a while). I clearly misspoke when I said "no one" used the chart that way. However, it sure appears that relatively few people use the chart the way it was intended.

    Have you ever noticed that Andy fiddled with the "splits" in that chart between the 2nd and 3rd editions?

  4. #4004
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    Very nice. You used it in the way intended and learned something you wouldn't otherwise have figured out (well, maybe you would've figured it out but perhaps not for a while). I clearly misspoke when I said "no one" used the chart that way. However, it sure appears that relatively few people use the chart the way it was intended.

    Have you ever noticed that Andy fiddled with the "splits" in that chart between the 2nd and 3rd editions?
    you mean 1st and 2nd, right? The second edition just came out two years ago.

    i actually use that damn chart to rue the transformation from having a pursuitist profile to a triathlete profile

  5. #4005
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    you mean 1st and 2nd, right? The second edition just came out two years ago.

    i actually use that damn chart to rue the transformation from having a pursuitist profile to a triathlete profile
    You talkin' 'bout the 1st and 2nd editions of the book? I was talking about the 2nd and 3rd editions of that chart, which preceded the book. I think he's up to version 4 or so on the profile chart.

  6. #4006
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    Just FYI it appears that French scientists are validating and improving the "ewang" concept.

    The record power profile to assess performance in elite cyclists.
    Int J Sports Med. 2011 Nov;32(11):839-44. Epub 2011 Nov 3.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22052032
    Pinot J, Grappe F.
    Source

    Departement Santé et Sports, Equipe Culture-Sport-Santé-Société (C3S) UPFR-Sports, 31 chemin de l'épitaphe, Besancon, France. julienpinot@laposte.net
    Abstract

    The purpose of this study was to assess the Record Power Profile (RPP) of cyclists, i. e., the relationship between different record Power Output (PO) and the corresponding durations through a whole race season. We hypothesized that PO of different effort durations could differ according to the cyclist's category and race performance profile. 17 cyclists (9 professionals and 8 elites) performed all trainings and competitions during 10 months with a mobile power meter device (SRM) mounted on their bike. The results show that the cyclists' RPP is a hyperbolic relationship between the different record PO and time durations. It significantly reflects the characteristics of different skills: (1) sprinters have the highest record PO within zone 5, (2) climbers present the highest record PO within zones 2-3 and, (3) climbers and flat specialists have higher zone 1 record PO than sprinters. These results suggest that the RPP represents "a signature" of the cyclists' physical capacity and that it allows the determination of different training intensities. The RPP appears as a new concept that is interesting for coaches and scientists in order to evaluate performance in cycling.

  7. #4007
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    You talkin' 'bout the 1st and 2nd editions of the book? I was talking about the 2nd and 3rd editions of that chart, which preceded the book. I think he's up to version 4 or so on the profile chart.
    I missed all that. I really have tried to focus on the shape of the graph. Of course, I got the ego trip going when looking at how high I could push my 1' power, then I had Andy asking for NP buster files. The excitement didn't last long, but it's tough not to compare at some level -- but that's now how I used the chart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    Just FYI it appears that French scientists are validating and improving the "ewang" concept.
    Sounds like a good next step.

  8. #4008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    Just FYI it appears that French scientists are validating and improving the "ewang" concept.
    Yeah, right.

  9. #4009
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Le chart du le'wang.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  10. #4010
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    for those interested, Gerran's power files from MSR: http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/0...ower-analysis/

  11. #4011
    Senior Member Smallguy's Avatar
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    For a summer peak July/Aug when would you started threshold improvement work?

    also I remember reading you can push or pull your threshold up and also that there was a way to determine whether pushing or pulling is better for you. Can someone explain how you determine which method is best?

  12. #4012
    grilled cheesus aham23's Avatar
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    on the push and pull i dont think there are indicators or numbers that can tell you whats best for you. trial and error was my approach. i liked a combination of pulling and pushing. that seemed to keep me more interested in putting in those trainer efforts. ymmv. later.

  13. #4013
    Senior Member Smallguy's Avatar
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    thanks for some reason I thought I saw something based on your power profile that would help assist you in determining which method to use

    once my GFNY training is done I think I will give the following a try

    M: 1 h at upper level 3/low level 4 or SST (roughly 91% of FTP)
    T: 1 h w/ 2 x 20 min at 100% of functional threshold power
    W: same as M
    Th: same as T
    F: same as M
    S and S: 1-2 h at level 3 or between 76-90% of FTP

    found it in this link http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-331553.html



    how many weeks can one sustain FTP training?

    All the programs on training peaks seems to be for 8 weeks following the 3weeks of work and 1 week easy philosophy
    Last edited by Smallguy; 04-17-12 at 09:06 AM.

  14. #4014
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallguy View Post
    thanks for some reason I thought I saw something based on your power profile that would help assist you in determining which method to use

    once my GFNY training is done I think I will give the following a try

    M: 1 h at upper level 3/low level 4 or SST (roughly 91% of FTP)
    T: 1 h w/ 2 x 20 min at 100% of functional threshold power
    W: same as M
    Th: same as T
    F: same as M
    S and S: 1-2 h at level 3 or between 76-90% of FTP

    found it in this link http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-331553.html



    how many weeks can one sustain FTP training?

    All the programs on training peaks seems to be for 8 weeks following the 3weeks of work and 1 week easy philosophy

    That's too much for me. I don't know what amount of training you can absorb (you're young, you recovery quickly), but I would be a crispy critter by the middle of week 2. rkwaki has posted a very simple training plan that you could adapt. Dig around for it in the Training thread.

    I don't know what kind of time you have available, but you should put a longer ride in on either Saturday and/or Sunday. I'm thinking 4-5 hours on one day at a mixed pace with the other day being 2-3 hours at an endurance pace (zone 2, mostly). During the week maybe shoot for 2-3 work days, 1-2 recovery ride days and at least one day completely off the bike. During the week, when you're going hard, you want to go hard. When you're not going hard you want to be recovering (which means doing nothing or zone 1). The weekend work would be more to build endurance and for aerobic fitness.

    Also, how long have you been seriously riding? If it's less than 1-2 years, then the best thing to do is not 'train' per say, but ride. Enjoy the bike and get as many miles as possible.

    These longer rides will do a lot for your overall fitness and definitely give your FTP a boost.

  15. #4015
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    That's a recipe for burnout.

  16. #4016
    Senior Member Smallguy's Avatar
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    thanks for the input... in the link it was a plan Hunter created in TRWPM I believe

    I've been riding since 2005 and training for 3 but this is my first year with a PM.

    I have noticed while doing my GFNY training that holding threshold is easier..especially outdoors.


    Outdoors my biggest issue is finding flat enough terrain that I can hold my power since we do not have any 10 or 20 minute climbs nearby. I am getting better though.

  17. #4017
    Senior Member Monkeyclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    That's a recipe for burnout.
    I was thinking the same thing, that would kill me. I do the following during my build:
    M - Off (run) or light ride
    T - 2x(20 min @ 90% x 10 min @ 50%) + 20 min @ ~80%, total 1hr 30m
    W - 16x(1min @ 120% x 1min @ 50% ), total 1hr
    Th - Same as T
    F - Off (Run)
    Sa - Long, fast group ride (~70 miles) or race
    Su - Off (run) or easy ride

    If the race is Sunday, I'll swap Saturday and Sunday.

    I've tried to do more than that and I never get a chance to recover. I can do this for 6-8 weeks before I need a break. That's when I switch to VO2Max intervals which are shorter and easier to recover from. If I'm doing two of those in a row, I'll do a test between to take into account any changes. I feel pretty beat the longer I get into the build. After switching to VO2Max and resting another few days, the difference is noticeable. This is still a work in progress, of course...

  18. #4018
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    If you run on your rest day, you're not resting.

  19. #4019
    Senior Member Monkeyclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If you run on your rest day, you're not resting.
    You haven't seen me run...

  20. #4020
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    'Mr. Winston Churchill, sir, to what do you attribute your success in life?' and he said without hesitating: 'Economy of effort. Never stand up when you can sit down, and never sit down when you can lie down.' And he then got into his limo."

  21. #4021
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    'Mr. Winston Churchill, sir, to what do you attribute your success in life?' and he said without hesitating: 'Economy of effort. Never stand up when you can sit down, and never sit down when you can lie down.' And he then got into his limo."
    A bunch of my employees are starting to use the stand-up desk computer setups. I'm giving them this quote all the time.

  22. #4022
    a runner no more plantrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Hah. I wish.

    Anyway, I deleted the data and downloaded the v.2.1 and now everything looks copacetic. Just not as impressive. :-(
    Same thing happened to me with today's ride. 1500W max power out of nowhere. I'm using 2.0, so I'll go upgrade to 2.1. Where is the file I need to delete to fix the data?

  23. #4023
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    A quick question.

    I have a race in just under 3 weeks that I've had horrible results in the past as it doesn't cater to my strengths much but I think I can improve upon that with some focus in the next couple weeks if I train specifically for it. My question...

    The laps are approx. 2' with 45" of that being a climb. I want to condition myself to be able to do approx. 450watts for 45" with recovery at tempo for 1'15" and repeat for a total of 50’. How would you go about conditioning yourself for that effort? Would you...


    A. ....do the 2 minute intervals at the target power levels but shorten the overall total to begin with and work more intervals in as you go until you reach the total time of the race.
    B. ...do the 2 minute intervals at the target power levels but break the overall total up into two partitions with an aerobic endurance recovery period in between and shorten the recovery period over time.
    C. ...or do the 2 minute intervals for the total duration of the race but start at lower power levels and increase power over time?
    I hope that makes sense.
    Thanks

  24. #4024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Out-The-Back View Post

    The laps are approx. 2' with 45" of that being a climb. I want to condition myself to be able to do approx. 450watts for 45" with recovery at tempo for 1'15" and repeat for a total of 50’. How would you go about conditioning yourself for that effort? Would you...
    i'm not an expert...but that sounds insanely hard to me. unless you're fabian cancellara or something, i would be astonished if you could do that as you actually described it. i don't know what your threshold is or how much you weigh or anything, but...

    right now, if you went out and started riding at 450 watts, how long could you hold it?

    if i had to pick from your options, i would think you'd want to go for the target power right away and gradually increase duration / decrease rest - so either A or B, and probably not C.

    but as i said, i'm not an expert.

  25. #4025
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    I don't know if I'll be able to either but I want to put a training plan in place to get as close as I can or atleast condition myself as much as possible in the process. I'm no lite weight @180 and I think that is a good target to be successful. My 5' power is 426 so I'm hoping it's not too lofty a goal. I'm obviously no expert either but if the crit is 50' and I achieve that, that is only 18.75 minutes at 450 watts and say I average 240 watts the other 31.25 minutes. According to my calcs which may be off, my average wattage would be 318.75 watts for the entire race excluding the finish. My threshold is 330 so yeah, that may be a bit lofty given the varying intensity. But I'd like to get as close as I can.

    I attempted "A" today for 10x450x45"x45" but didn't feel great and switched to "B", but did 7x450x45"x45", 30' aerobic endurance, and another set of 7. Hard yes, but I did it with 1:1 recovery time, after looking at the laps for the race, I would have more in the order of 1:15. So I'm hoping I can increase the number of intervals and reduce and eliminate the recovery period as my anaerobic abilities improve. Especially if I'm better prepared as I wasn't today.

    But I agree, I was thinking A or B

    I started to put together a plan for B for the next 18 days as...

    Day 1 Tues. (I did this today)
    20' Warmup
    7x45”x450x45"xAE
    30'xAE
    7x45”x450x45"xAE
    20' cooldown
    =98'

    Day 2 Wed
    180' AE
    =180'

    Day 3 Thurs
    20' Warmup
    9x45"x450x1'15"xAE
    25'xAE
    9x45"x450x1'15"xAE
    20' Cooldown
    =101'

    Day 4 Fri
    Rest

    Day 5 Sat
    60' AE
    120' tempo+ (I may tone this down if Thursday proves difficult)
    60' AE
    =240'

    Day 6 Sun
    20' Warmup
    11x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    20'xAE
    11x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    20' Cooldown
    =104'

    Day 7 Mon
    Rest

    Day 8 Tues
    20' Warmup
    13x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    20'xAE
    12x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    20' Cooldown
    =110"

    Day 9 Wed
    180' AE
    =180'

    Day 10 Thurs
    20' Warmup
    15x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    15'xAE
    10x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    20' Cooldown
    =105'

    Day 11 Fri
    Rest

    Day 12 Sat
    60' AE
    120' tempo+ (same, may tone it down to concentrate on intervals Sunday)
    60' AE
    =240’


    Day 13 Sun
    20’ Warmup
    17x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    10'xAE
    8x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    20’ Cooldown

    =100’

    Day 14 Mon
    Rest

    Day 15 Tues
    20’ Warmup
    20x45”x450x1'15"xAE
    20’ Cooldown

    =80’

    Day 16 Wed
    120' AE

    =120’

    Day 17 Thurs
    Rest

    Day 18 Fri
    90’ Openers

    =90”

    Day 19 Sat (Race Day)

    60’ Warmup
    50’ Race
    20’ Cooldown
    =130’
    Last edited by Out-The-Back; 05-02-12 at 03:04 AM.

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