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-   -   Just started training with Power? Post your questions/comments here! (http://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/488667-just-started-training-power-post-your-questions-comments-here.html)

thechemist 12-05-13 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7bmwm3gtr (Post 16303763)
Hey everyone for about 3 months I have been debating which power meter to get. It's quite an investment so I want to get it right so I'm hoping I can get a little feedback here.

i'm considering the (a) Quarq Elsa, (b) Garmin vector, (c) Stages power meter mated to a new Cdale hollowgram.

-Quarq Elsa is most expensive and I'd need to switch out the chainrings but it is loved by many people.
-Vector is barely less expensive and it's new (could get cheaper)--but my pedals get pretty ugly after a while and I don't know if I can tolerate that with "$1600 pedals," plus that pod.
-originally wanted to get the stages because then I'm forced to change my carbon fsa cranks to the hollowgram sl or even sisl2 (which is a favorable upgrade). It's also the cheapest option. However, I feel like the left leg only aspect will bother me...but I have seen good reviews.

I've asked bike shops. The best thing they can say about any of them is "yeah it is a really popular model (quarq)" or "my cat 1 and 2 friends switched from a quarq to it (stages)." The vector was criticized, the shop guy told me he felt that there was a really fragile piece somewhere.

Anyways I don't know who to ask since the bike shops I go to don't train or ride with power. So thanks in advanced for any feedback, I'd really appreciate it :)

Why not SRM? I don't see any reason to get the Elsa over the Riken when it comes to quarq. Plus if you indeed do have a cannondale you could just get the cannondale spider and it would probably weigh less than the Elsa anyway or come close. Make sure the Vector will fit your bike if you go that route.

Racer Ex 12-05-13 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechemist (Post 16303845)
Why not SRM? I don't see any reason to get the Elsa over the Riken when it comes to quarq. Plus if you indeed do have a cannondale you could just get the cannondale spider and it would probably weigh less than the Elsa anyway or come close. Make sure the Vector will fit your bike if you go that route.

You can get the SRM spider for the C'dale hollowgram crank, they show up on Ebay from time to time and even new they aren't oppressively expensive. Cleave has one, no issues.

bikepro 12-05-13 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7bmwm3gtr (Post 16303763)
Hey everyone for about 3 months I have been debating which power meter to get. It's quite an investment so I want to get it right so I'm hoping I can get a little feedback here.

i'm considering the (a) Quarq Elsa, (b) Garmin vector, (c) Stages power meter mated to a new Cdale hollowgram.

-Quarq Elsa is most expensive and I'd need to switch out the chainrings but it is loved by many people.
-Vector is barely less expensive and it's new (could get cheaper)--but my pedals get pretty ugly after a while and I don't know if I can tolerate that with "$1600 pedals," plus that pod.
-originally wanted to get the stages because then I'm forced to change my carbon fsa cranks to the hollowgram sl or even sisl2 (which is a favorable upgrade). It's also the cheapest option. However, I feel like the left leg only aspect will bother me...but I have seen good reviews.

I've asked bike shops. The best thing they can say about any of them is "yeah it is a really popular model (quarq)" or "my cat 1 and 2 friends switched from a quarq to it (stages)." The vector was criticized, the shop guy told me he felt that there was a really fragile piece somewhere.

Anyways I don't know who to ask since the bike shops I go to don't train or ride with power. So thanks in advanced for any feedback, I'd really appreciate it :)

It's not on your list, but this is a great price on a carbon wheelset with PowerTap from Competitive Cyclist.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/cy...XQxMDAyMDQxNjY

7bmwm3gtr 12-05-13 05:18 PM

Thank you very much to all who replied! Like I said, I really do appreciate it.

Thanks for that suggestion bikepro. That is an incredible deal and I'll look into it. I might be too OCD to use that as a training wheel though haha.

I'm leaning toward the Stages because it can cost 1300-1400 with an Si Hollowgram. I'd have to buy the two separately, but I've been looking to upgrade my crankset anyways. Joe Friel just told me via twitter that there's no wrong going towards it so that helped a lot too!

aaronmcd 12-05-13 05:46 PM

If anyone has some time, I would like input on my perceived exertion of different percentages of [estimated] FTP. I am doing a test this weekend, so I can update FTP at that point. All are for sustained efforts below FTP, as I haven’t started interval training.

I am also wondering what other people use for power zones, what each zone “feels like”, and how many zones you have (below and above ftp). Is a zone for you a target or a range (or a bit of both)?

90% - (Hard workout)
Very focused on effort. Good for 20 to 45 minutes for a first climb of a long ride and still feel good for later climbs.

80% - (Moderate workout)
Takes focus to hold on the flats. Can do a ton of climbing at this level and feel quite good still. Would not want to do it for a few hours, but could if I had to.

65% - (Easy workout)
No focus required for this effort except to keep an eye on the computer. Can keep it up for many hours. Legs may get sluggish, but no big deal.

50% - (Not a workout)
Just riding along, not trying to get anywhere. Recovery days. Better leave early; it’ll take time to get anywhere.

40% - (Am I moving?)
Feels like a college student chatting with friends while riding a beat up cruiser and swerving around from lack of experience riding a bike. Reserved for commute home late at night, muscles sore, and am really lazy.

furiousferret 12-05-13 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaronmcd (Post 16304798)
If anyone has some time, I would like input on my perceived exertion of different percentages of [estimated] FTP. I am doing a test this weekend, so I can update FTP at that point. All are for sustained efforts below FTP, as I haven’t started interval training.

I am also wondering what other people use for power zones, what each zone “feels like”, and how many zones you have (below and above ftp). Is a zone for you a target or a range (or a bit of both)?

90% - (Hard workout)
Very focused on effort. Good for 20 to 45 minutes for a first climb of a long ride and still feel good for later climbs.

80% - (Moderate workout)
Takes focus to hold on the flats. Can do a ton of climbing at this level and feel quite good still. Would not want to do it for a few hours, but could if I had to.

65% - (Easy workout)
No focus required for this effort except to keep an eye on the computer. Can keep it up for many hours. Legs may get sluggish, but no big deal.

50% - (Not a workout)
Just riding along, not trying to get anywhere. Recovery days. Better leave early; it’ll take time to get anywhere.

40% - (Am I moving?)
Feels like a college student chatting with friends while riding a beat up cruiser and swerving around from lack of experience riding a bike. Reserved for commute home late at night, muscles sore, and am really lazy.

After getting my Vectors 2 months ago, I was really surprised how off my RPE was.

I typically ride on the flats, and going out where we have a tailwind and I am just hammering at 26-28 mph I thought my RPE was 90%, but in fact it was around 150 watts (my ftp is 220ish). Going back into the headwinds which I slog more and though my effort felt lower it can be 50 watts higher.

About the percentages here is what I would translate them to; my light z2 days are 70%, 80% would be a hard effort I could hold for 2 hours, and 90% would be a 40k effort.

rankin116 12-06-13 07:14 PM

Question regarding a Garmin 705:

I rode tonight, and when I went to download the files (there were two, I started a fresh files in the middle of the ride) the second file only has ~2Kb of data with it, it's essentially a blank file. If I go the the history on the device though the data is there. Is there some way to get the info off the device so I can load it into Golden Cheetah?

brian416 12-07-13 03:29 PM

There's no way to get the data back, my 705 did the same thing on an important race file, I tried everything, the data just isn't there. I dumped the 705 and my 800 been perfect.

mattm 12-07-13 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rankin116 (Post 16308277)
Question regarding a Garmin 705:

I rode tonight, and when I went to download the files (there were two, I started a fresh files in the middle of the ride) the second file only has ~2Kb of data with it, it's essentially a blank file. If I go the the history on the device though the data is there. Is there some way to get the info off the device so I can load it into Golden Cheetah?

Is it full?

I would try removing some old files.

The other thing I think that works in this situation is deleting the "Laps" folder or something like that.. I've had this happen before and there was a trick to fix it.

rankin116 12-09-13 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 16310488)
Is it full?

I would try removing some old files.

The other thing I think that works in this situation is deleting the "Laps" folder or something like that.. I've had this happen before and there was a trick to fix it.

Do you recall how/where you found the trick? It isn't full and I did delete all the old files. This is very frustrating. Thanks for the help guys.

mattm 12-09-13 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rankin116 (Post 16315528)
Do you recall how/where you found the trick? It isn't full and I did delete all the old files. This is very frustrating. Thanks for the help guys.

It was on a Garmin forum I think.

Creatre 12-09-13 04:05 PM

It's pretty common around that if the Garmin (pretty much any edge's) starts acting funny to back up the data and clean it out. Not sure what's up with that, but I try to keep it less than 50% full and it's a lot more stable. Doesn't solve everything, but solves a lot!

thechemist 12-10-13 12:36 PM

So Hunter Allen's 20min FTP test or Friel's 30min test? I don't plan of doing the 60min test. I am guessing the 20min will be better for me as a "first FTP test." Some locals have suggested going to a local coach and get it done indoors. I don't mind doing this but I see no reason not to do this on my own especially if I will be doing this every 4-6 weeks.

My planned FTP course is ~2 hrs with very minimal stops. I have a small hill around 1~hr(sneed) and the overall course is slightly downhill. For the locals it's basically Hillsboro rd from 31 in springhill to Charlotte downtown(at 4am with no lights or traffic!) So I could fit in either test protocol and avoid or include the hill in either.(I understand these tests aren't two hours so I will be zone 1 coughing up a lung for the remainder of my ride :p)

Since this is my commute in the I can repeat this anytime. That being said, how often are you guys doing FTP during base? My base is 12 weeks so I could do FTP between base 1,base2 and base 3 or I could just do FTP now and then after base in 12weeks? I'd rather do it more frequently as I expect quite a change. Then again, all of my base training is supposed to be below threshold so these FTP tests break the mold slightly.

mattm 12-10-13 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechemist (Post 16318122)
Since this is my commute in the I can repeat this anytime. That being said, how often are you guys doing FTP during base? My base is 12 weeks so I could do FTP between base 1,base2 and base 3 or I could just do FTP now and then after base in 12weeks? I'd rather do it more frequently as I expect quite a change. Then again, all of my base training is supposed to be below threshold so these FTP tests break the mold slightly.

My plan is to do an FTP test every rest week. Hasn't quite worked out like that, but that's the plan!

thechemist 12-10-13 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 16318141)
My plan is to do an FTP test every rest week. Hasn't quite worked out like that, but that's the plan!

I think I may do the same thing. I taper off in hours at the end of each base period and will probably do FTP updates then and that will give me FTP data every 4 weeks!

furiousferret 12-10-13 01:19 PM

I find the Golden Cheetah and Strava FTP estimates to be within 5 of my 20 minute tests.

rankin116 12-10-13 01:38 PM

How does Golden Cheetah estimate FTP? I'm just learning how to use that software. The file data I lost was an FTP test, so I'm still trying to figure out how to get that back. I can see the average watts for the interval, but that's it. I guess it will do, but I'd like to see more.

thechemist 12-10-13 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rankin116 (Post 16318326)
How does Golden Cheetah estimate FTP? I'm just learning how to use that software. The file data I lost was an FTP test, so I'm still trying to figure out how to get that back. I can see the average watts for the interval, but that's it. I guess it will do, but I'd like to see more.

I believe it just uses a distribution chart and gather the noticeable drop-off data(above threshold) from high-intensity training and racing. Obviously the more data/training the better.

globecanvas 12-10-13 02:11 PM

Honestly I don't see a lot of value in testing FTP frequently. Even the 20 minute test is, as they say, "destructive" in that it costs a lot of energy/recovery resources that you could otherwise be using to train.

If specific work that used to be hard seems easier, bump up the target power until it seems as hard as it used to be.

waterrockets 12-10-13 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 16318465)
Honestly I don't see a lot of value in testing FTP frequently. Even the 20 minute test is, as they say, "destructive" in that it costs a lot of energy/recovery resources that you could otherwise be using to train.

If specific work that used to be hard seems easier, bump up the target power until it seems as hard as it used to be.

MAP and 3' all-out CP don't bring much of a training hit, FWIW.

rankin116 12-10-13 02:46 PM

Shouldn't some training be hard though? I mean, if racing is training, what does that make training? :)

thechemist 12-10-13 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 16318465)
Honestly I don't see a lot of value in testing FTP frequently. Even the 20 minute test is, as they say, "destructive" in that it costs a lot of energy/recovery resources that you could otherwise be using to train.

If specific work that used to be hard seems easier, bump up the target power until it seems as hard as it used to be.

I agree with WR in the sense that FTP testing won't be terribly taxing for the total week especially if done on a rest week. That and the value of knowing your FTP would be worth it.
How often are you testing FTP? Come build season, I would want my zones to be pretty accurate.

furiousferret 12-10-13 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 16318465)
Honestly I don't see a lot of value in testing FTP frequently. Even the 20 minute test is, as they say, "destructive" in that it costs a lot of energy/recovery resources that you could otherwise be using to train.

If specific work that used to be hard seems easier, bump up the target power until it seems as hard as it used to be.

It all depends where you are at in training. For a newer cyclist or someone coming off break or injury, ftp will change quite a bit. For me, my FTP has changed by 15 in just the past month, which completely changes my zones. For someone who has peaked it may not be all that important.

Which leads me to this question, what ftp variance does a pro or cyclist who has reached their genetic potential have? I'm guessing the off season it is lower but by how much?

furiousferret 12-10-13 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rankin116 (Post 16318326)
How does Golden Cheetah estimate FTP? I'm just learning how to use that software. The file data I lost was an FTP test, so I'm still trying to figure out how to get that back. I can see the average watts for the interval, but that's it. I guess it will do, but I'd like to see more.

There is a chart called 'cp' which has a curve and assigns a number. That is your 'Critical Power' which is based on your best 3m effort and 20m effort. For me it adds up close to ftp. For someone with good 3m power, it may be high.

mattm 12-10-13 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by globecanvas (Post 16318465)
Honestly I don't see a lot of value in testing FTP frequently. Even the 20 minute test is, as they say, "destructive" in that it costs a lot of energy/recovery resources that you could otherwise be using to train.

If specific work that used to be hard seems easier, bump up the target power until it seems as hard as it used to be.

Friel suggests doing the test during build/base rest weeks, to see if you're actually progressing on building up your FTP, and to make sure your zones are correct.

So any impact would be negligible since it's during a rest week.

I don't think doing a test every 4 weeks during the race season would make sense though.


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