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  1. #5476
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Today I did a 2 hour roller session. First 45 minutes were not bad, but after that, my power kept creeping up in relation to my HR. I would be spinning along at a given wattage, my HR would start dropping so I would pick the power up, HR stabilizes, ride at new higher power, HR starts to drop, pick up the power, etc. The last 50 minutes my power was 20 watts above Z2, but my HR stayed solidly Z2. This is all very surprising, given that I was out of commission with a rather severe ear infection from Dec. 6 - 13, but I will take it. Negative cardiac drift!
    this is a good description of why HR is inferior to power as a training metric.

    today was the first time I rode the trainer in a year. same thing, sort of. keeping the same PE, my power crept up and up through the hour. I attribute it to getting used to the stationary bike, and warming up in a 40f garage.

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  2. #5477
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    So for the last half week, it seems to take me about 45 minutes to warm up on the rollers. Before that, I don't necessarily feel bad, but my HR is too high and my watts are too low. Around 45 minutes it turns around, and by the end of the session I am putting out some pretty good power (for me), and my HR is staying Z2.

    Today I did a 2 hour roller session. First 45 minutes were not bad, but after that, my power kept creeping up in relation to my HR. I would be spinning along at a given wattage, my HR would start dropping so I would pick the power up, HR stabilizes, ride at new higher power, HR starts to drop, pick up the power, etc. The last 50 minutes my power was 20 watts above Z2, but my HR stayed solidly Z2. This is all very surprising, given that I was out of commission with a rather severe ear infection from Dec. 6 - 13, but I will take it. Negative cardiac drift!
    did you check zero offset before and after the effort?

  3. #5478
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    did you check zero offset before and after the effort?
    Thing is, my wheel speed also reflects higher intensity/ power - consistent with reported power.

  4. #5479
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    That doesnt answer the question. Roller drums heat up after usage. This is why you should check offset before and after workouts, otherwise the data loses value.

    you may indeed have gotten negative decoupling (which really doesnt mean much), but a lot more doubt is cast on the validity of the data b/c you didnt perform the offset.

  5. #5480
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Point taken, will have to start monitoring that more consistently.

  6. #5481
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    what is this zero offset thing you refer to?

  7. #5482
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    Sounds like everyone needs to HTFU and go outside

  8. #5483
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thechemist View Post
    Sounds like everyone needs to HTFU and go outside
    data has more value indoors

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  9. #5484
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    That doesnt answer the question. Roller drums heat up after usage. This is why you should check offset before and after workouts, otherwise the data loses value.

    you may indeed have gotten negative decoupling (which really doesnt mean much), but a lot more doubt is cast on the validity of the data b/c you didnt perform the offset.
    wanted to echo this first point--fluid-based resistance units are often affected by temperature changes. even magnetic trainers are not immune -- tires heat up and rolling resistance changes. speed's not a bad indicator when things stabilize, but like echapp says it would be helpful for you to check the meter's drift. some meters drift one way or the other as they (or the room) heats up. which way yours might go i couldn't say, but checking ZO before and after rides (indoor or out), esp as temp changes will help you get to know its behavior better and help separate meter issues vs fitness changes.

    negative decoupling is not without meaning -- it can be a sign of improved fitness and ability to recover. just depends on the specifics of the work being done.

  10. #5485
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    Quote Originally Posted by thechemist View Post
    Sounds like everyone needs to HTFU and go outside
    some would say there's a lot more HTFU to be had by riding inside​.

  11. #5486
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    I had an issue where my powermeter just wouldn't read power after a certain point (2 hours into a ride). Turns out the thing had been beat to hell and back. I got a brand new srm free of charge, and i think they even paid for my shipping. Nice customer service, but i don't expect to need anything from them for a long time.
    you got that one used, right? damn. wtf happened to it before you got it???

  12. #5487
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    I'm having some issues with number drops. The issue seems to be intermittent. The confusing thing is HR is dropping also. I lose HR, then power, then speed. Sometimes 1, sometimes all three. Magnets seem to be positioned correctly.

    I've replicated the issue one two bikes, so SRM sent me a replacement PC7 yesterday and I got some drops today on my ride.

    I can't say for certain if it occurs any place other than my basement, so I'm thinking I'm getting some kind of occasional interference.
    gary--you running the latest firmware for the pc7?

  13. #5488
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    dunno. I'll look into it. They just sent me a new one on Friday.

  14. #5489
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    ok, I can't find anything on how to check the firmware version.

  15. #5490
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Download the latest SRM software. Open it up, go to Powercontrol at the top menu, then hit "flash firmware".

  16. #5491
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    thanks. done and done.

  17. #5492
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Garmin question:

    I want it to record all power including zeros, correct?
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  18. #5493
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Do you mean the avg shown on the screen, or the data recorded?

    Fwiw I don't have zeroes included in the avg shown on screen, but it still records everything including zeroes when viewed in WKO. I'm using "every second" or whatever the setting's called, not "smart recording".

    Also I use auto-pause so the data at stoplights isn't included.
    pro-meter: lol

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  19. #5494
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Garmin question:

    I want it to record all power including zeros, correct?
    Depends also on if you use GC or WKO+(and if you care about TSS) as i believe GC does not correct for zeros and WKO+ does

    From my recent research, sorry i can't recall the author-
    "
    If you ride with an event based power meter like a SRM\Quarq the data recording process gives an auto-pause implementation for power data. If you are stopped with the timer running with an event based power meter the Edge records no power value. This is different to zero power that the Edge will record if you are moving and generating no power (e.g. coasting). None zero power time is excluded from the WKO+ calculation for TSS. This is the same from a TSS calculation perspective as having auto-pause on.
    If you train with a time based power meter like the Powertap then the Edge will record zero power values when stationary as that is what the power meter sends. Here the use of auto-pause has an impact.

    Whether resting time should be included in a TSS calculation is up to you. Many exclude it."





    New to all this so take it for what its worth

  20. #5495
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Okay, thanks. I didn't realize that autopause and non-zero recording were two different things but now it's obvious to me.
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  21. #5496
    You blink and it's gone. rbart4506's Avatar
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    So that's what my Quarqs have been doing. That makes sense, thanks for posting...
    "On the other hand riding down a hill at 55 MPH wearing (essentially) women's underwear and a Styrofoam cup on your head is the epitome of rational life-extending decisions." - RacerEx

  22. #5497
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
    wanted to echo this first point--fluid-based resistance units are often affected by temperature changes. even magnetic trainers are not immune -- tires heat up and rolling resistance changes. speed's not a bad indicator when things stabilize, but like echapp says it would be helpful for you to check the meter's drift. some meters drift one way or the other as they (or the room) heats up. which way yours might go i couldn't say, but checking ZO before and after rides (indoor or out), esp as temp changes will help you get to know its behavior better and help separate meter issues vs fitness changes.

    negative decoupling is not without meaning -- it can be a sign of improved fitness and ability to recover. just depends on the specifics of the work being done.
    Last couple of sessions I have been making sure to check the offset before and after (seems like a good habit). In any case, this seems to be a change in fitness, but well beyond my expectations. Over the course of the first base block I saw a similar phenomenon, but less dramatic, and when I tested I was up 15 watts.

    I will test again in about 10 days, right now I am on base block 2. Today I did a 2 hour roller session, the plan was mostly Z2. For the last 10 minutes before my cooldown, my average power was Z4 (215 watts), for reference, SST for me is roughly 205-212 watts (based on my last FTP test), HR was solidly Z2.

    Here is my quandry. Tomorrow I have 2x20 SST intervals scheduled, but if I am able to handle an intensity above SST and maintain my HR at a Z2 level, should I assume that intervals pegged to my previously-tested FTP will fail to stimulate the kind of training stress that I am after, given my present state of fitness? Perhaps use HR as a guide and aim for high tempo/ subthreshold HR, and keep a close eye on power? Or is it possible something else is happening that is confounding HR, and I should just stick with my power zones based on my last FTP test?

    Did Santa bring me 30+ watts?

  23. #5498
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    hey, wesley--you've quoted me here, so i'll reply.

    i'd have to know much more about your situation to know whether your low HR is improved fitness or some other issue (fatigue), but i'm going to guess the former if your PE is lower for those 2x20 sessions, along with z2 HR.

    if your HR is truly z2 during 2x20s, the answer is yes, you're probably doing them too easy to elicit the training response you want.

    the 2x20 concept basically boils down to "hard enough to get a good training response but not so hard that you are not fully recovered by the next day."

    based on this limited info and a best guess, i'd suggest you let perceived exertion be your guide until you re-test and figure out new zones.

    don't worry about being too rigid with power (and especially not with HR).

    PS hope you DID get that +30W!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Here is my quandry. Tomorrow I have 2x20 SST intervals scheduled, but if I am able to handle an intensity above SST and maintain my HR at a Z2 level, should I assume that intervals pegged to my previously-tested FTP will fail to stimulate the kind of training stress that I am after, given my present state of fitness? Perhaps use HR as a guide and aim for high tempo/ subthreshold HR, and keep a close eye on power? Or is it possible something else is happening that is confounding HR, and I should just stick with my power zones based on my last FTP test?

    Did Santa bring me 30+ watts?

  24. #5499
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Bump your FTP by 15w until your next test.

  25. #5500
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Bump your FTP by 15w until your next test.
    Did not see this before hopping on the rollers today, but going by HR and RPE I ended up doing my SST intervals almost exactly 15 watts higher. Good call.

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