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  1. #651
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    +1, always appreciating umd's responses.
    Btw I'm "Steve Weixel" on the goodle wattage group. I saw your post there, I've just been lurking until recently. I know very little compared to many of the guys there.

  2. #652
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    Unfortunately, the KK power curve numbers were waaaay off for me.
    but as long as it's consistent relative to itself, it should be perfectly usable for training. if you happen to own another PM, you can use them together once, and have a good idea of the offset.

  3. #653
    bf is my facebook. ljrichar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slynkie View Post
    but as long as it's consistent relative to itself, it should be perfectly usable for training. if you happen to own another PM, you can use them together once, and have a good idea of the offset.
    Mine wasn't off consistently, it was off to the square or cube or something, I'm not a math person. Here's my original post on the matter.

    http://67.201.16.77/showthread.php?t...ht=power+curve

  4. #654
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    Mine wasn't off consistently, it was off to the square or cube or something, I'm not a math person. Here's my original post on the matter.

    http://67.201.16.77/showthread.php?t...ht=power+curve
    isn't your post about consistency relative to the powertap?

    Quote Originally Posted by slynkie View Post
    but as long as it's consistent relative to itself

  5. #655
    Senior Member Dubbayoo's Avatar
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    How hard do you push 20 min intervals?


    At the end of March I started doing 20min @ 91-100% and I was usually at my threshold HR (168) the last 5-8 minutes. MY FTP has gone up quite a bit, to the point where I'm now finishing the intervals around 160-162 HR*. If I try to finish the interval at threshold HR now I end up a good 30-35 watts over my last calculated threshold power. If I don't push right up against threshold HR for the last 5 min at least I end up recovering so quickly I'm not sure I'm getting much out of it. Seems like the ideal would be to get within a few beats of threshold ASAP and hold it for the duration, rather than just ending there. I'm going to raise my wattage target for May; just not sure how much.

    At what point in your 20min intervals do you try to hit threshold HR? if at all.


    * - this is mostly because my FTP was so poor to begin with.

  6. #656
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    If you're 30-35 watts over your previous threshold power, you really need to test again. Maybe do a 2x20 test with 5 mins in the middle for rest, or do a MAP test.

    How did you determine your FTP to begin with? Do you have any longer rides where you have a reasonable 1 hr AP/NP?

    I'm shooting for a MAP test next week. I did 2x20 at almost 100% without serious pain. I need a retest. I'm guessing my FTP has gone up by 10-20 watts since the last time I tested.
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  7. #657
    Ho-Jahm Hocam's Avatar
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    What kind of rate do you guys use to increase your TSS week to week? I've been shooting for 10% for 3-4 weeks, then -20% for a rest week.
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  8. #658
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocam View Post
    What kind of rate do you guys use to increase your TSS week to week? I've been shooting for 10% for 3-4 weeks, then -20% for a rest week.
    I'm not aiming for a precise ramp rate, but it looks like I've been doing about 10%/week. -20% for a rest week sounds like too much though, at least at my CTL level (57.8 today). Unless you're talking about a week completely off the bike. I don't think I've dropped more than 15% for a rest week this year.

    Also, I don't think the 10% gains will be sustainable (for me) as CTL goes up.

  9. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocam View Post
    What kind of rate do you guys use to increase your TSS week to week? I've been shooting for 10% for 3-4 weeks, then -20% for a rest week.
    Conventional wisdom says 4-8 is a sustainable ramp rate over the long term and most power forum geeks have done away w a scheduled rest week taking rest when they feel they need it or when life demands it.

    I average a ramp rate of 3-4, opting for 0 or less when a target race comes up (to ensure my TSB is positive).

  10. #660
    negligent. slynkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LT Intolerant View Post
    Conventional wisdom says 4-8 is a sustainable ramp rate over the long term and most power forum geeks have done away w a scheduled rest week taking rest when they feel they need it or when life demands it.

    I average a ramp rate of 3-4, opting for 0 or less when a target race comes up (to ensure my TSB is positive).
    are you talking percentage points or actual CTL?

  11. #661
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by slynkie View Post
    are you talking percentage points or actual CTL?
    I asked this on the wattage group a little while ago and most of the answers were actual points not percentages.

  12. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by slynkie View Post
    are you talking percentage points or actual CTL?
    Sorry, I was talking about points.

  13. #663
    Ho-Jahm Hocam's Avatar
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    I was talking about % increase of your TSS since it's a bit tricky to figure out what TSS is required for a CTL ramp rate.
    Race-o-meter:
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  14. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocam View Post
    I was talking about % increase of your TSS since it's a bit tricky to figure out what TSS is required for a CTL ramp rate.
    I believe the formula for determining what TSS is required to hit a desired ramp rate is...

    ((Current CTL) + (6*Desired Ramp Rate)*7)= Needed TSS to Achieve Ramp Rate
    Last edited by LT Intolerant; 05-04-09 at 10:10 AM. Reason: too many parentheses

  15. #665
    Senior Member Dubbayoo's Avatar
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    I need to raise my threshold in WKO+. I know how to do it but I see the 'effective date' is always grayed out. How can I enter the new number so it doesn't affect past data?

  16. #666
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubbayoo View Post
    I need to raise my threshold in WKO+. I know how to do it but I see the 'effective date' is always grayed out. How can I enter the new number so it doesn't affect past data?
    Options > New Zones

  17. #667
    Glimmers of form esammuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LT Intolerant View Post
    I believe the formula for determining what TSS is required to hit a desired ramp rate is...

    ((Current CTL) + (6*Desired Ramp Rate)*7)= Needed TSS to Achieve Ramp Rate
    Shouldn't it be


    ((Current CTL) + (6*Desired Ramp Rate))*7= Ramp Rate ??

  18. #668
    Senior Member Dubbayoo's Avatar
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    You're a gentleman and a scholar.

  19. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by esammuli View Post
    Shouldn't it be


    ((Current CTL) + (6*Desired Ramp Rate))*7= Ramp Rate ??
    So lets say my current CTL is 100 and my desired ramp rate is 5....

    ((100) + (6*5))*7) = 910...the TSS I need to hit to achieve a ramp rate of 5

    Maybe I have it wrong?

  20. #670
    Glimmers of form esammuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LT Intolerant View Post
    So lets say my current CTL is 100 and my desired ramp rate is 5....

    ((100) + (6*5))*7) = 910...the TSS I need to hit to achieve a ramp rate of 5

    Maybe I have it wrong?
    That should do it now, except you've got one extra parenthesis at the end. I was just pointing out that the syntax from your original post would have been

    ((Current CTL) + (6*Desired Ramp Rate)*7)= Needed TSS to Achieve Ramp Rate
    100+6*5*7= 310

    Now it's (100+6*5)*7=910 which is the desired result (aside from the unpaired parenthesis at the end). I think we've got it settled now.

  21. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    For me power on hills vs. flats is a motivational and feedback issue. You let up for a moment on a climb and you slow down immediately. Let up on the flats and it is not immediately obvious if you are not watching your power. In other words, it's too easy too wuss out.
    good explanation; this clears up my questions; i have to contend with a lot of rollers; most hills where i live can be put away with 3 minutes or less of FTP and it's hard to increase cadence or shift to keep power constant as you crest a hill, and vice versa after bottoming out; finding a good 5' test spot has been my challenge

  22. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by esammuli View Post
    That should do it now, except you've got one extra parenthesis at the end. I was just pointing out that the syntax from your original post would have been

    ((Current CTL) + (6*Desired Ramp Rate)*7)= Needed TSS to Achieve Ramp Rate
    100+6*5*7= 310

    Now it's (100+6*5)*7=910 which is the desired result (aside from the unpaired parenthesis at the end). I think we've got it settled now.
    Cool. Math was never my strong point. For that matter neither was english, science, etc, etc

  23. #673
    umd
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    Check out the 30 day PMC predictor spreadsheet that was posted on the wattage group.

  24. #674
    Transplant Robobo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post

    Not that it is not a reasonable representation of NP, just that you don't want to use an NP with a high VI to estimate FTP as it means you got a lot of "rest" which recharges your AWC which allows you to keep pumping out high-power efforts even though you would not be able to sustain a longer medium-power effort. The NP algorithm causes high power efforts to heavily weight it up, while low-power efforts do not drag it down as quickly as it would for AP. The idea of NP is that it estimates the equivalent metabolic effort, but that doesn't mean you would be able to sustain an equivalent steady-state power without the anaerobic contribution.
    What constitutes a high VI?

    I'm battling a similar question to the OP of this part of the thread... just did two races this weekend and seem to have blown up my FTP big time. It's time to re-test, but it doesn't fit in the schedule for another couple of weeks (until after the big stage race on Memorial Day weekend).
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  25. #675
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robobo1 View Post
    What constitutes a high VI?

    I'm battling a similar question to the OP of this part of the thread... just did two races this weekend and seem to have blown up my FTP big time. It's time to re-test, but it doesn't fit in the schedule for another couple of weeks (until after the big stage race on Memorial Day weekend).
    Not sure what the "cutoff" would be but everything I've heard suggests that 1.3 (30% difference between NP and AP) is too variable to be useful for those purposes. Rides I do that don't have excessive amounts of coasting or extreme high power/lower power seem to come in more like 1.1 or less. I don't have a huge amount of experience here so take this with a grain of salt but it seems that if you get any higher than 1.15 you are too much into AWC territory IMO.

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