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-   -   Just started training with Power? Post your questions/comments here! (http://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/488667-just-started-training-power-post-your-questions-comments-here.html)

ridethecliche 12-04-08 11:31 AM

I figured I'd waste an hour today and play around with my fit and see how things affected power. I moved my saddle up about 5mm and forward about 1.2cm.

Using PE when I do my 90% SST intervals @220 watts, I saw a wattage of about 270 watts. Unfortunately, I figure a side effect of this is going to be premature fatigue due to different muscle use. I had everything marked on my saddle and post, and since I've been making gains in the current position, I don't want to change things too much.
I moved the saddle up 3mm and forward 3mm.

Edit: Is it a really dumb idea to mess with position like this when there are no comfort or other issues?

Psimet2001 12-04-08 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ridethecliche (Post 7963431)
Edit: Is it a really dumb idea to mess with position like this when there are no comfort or other issues?

If the corresponding changes don't cause comfort or other issues either then no. I find that the better the form I am in then the more I can move my position without negative effects. When my form (mostly core) is in poor shape then small changes cause big problems.

ridethecliche 12-04-08 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 (Post 7967004)
If the corresponding changes don't cause comfort or other issues either then no. I find that the better the form I am in then the more I can move my position without negative effects. When my form (mostly core) is in poor shape then small changes cause big problems.

I actually played with some measurements and then moved it back to where it was.

Last year, my race bike had a BB:saddle of 79cm. I think I moved it up to 80cm (maybe 81, doubt this though) at one point and I was fine. I checked the BB:saddle of this and it's currently at 78. What's really throwing me off is that the saddle is pushed back as much as it can be on the seatpost. On my old frame (too small) the saddle was slammed all the way forward on a setback post, and the new frame has a zero setback post so it works out to be pretty comparable.

I do want to move my saddle 1cm forward at some point of time. Maybe I'll do this over winter break so I can ride the trainer with this setup through the winter.

Is there any particular calculation I can use to figure out how much to raise my saddle if I want to move forward 1 cm? I have a 56cm CAAD9 seattube angle is 73.5 degrees.

PS: Are those numbers starting to make sense?

TideCrazy3193 12-05-08 01:16 AM

I become a power noob tonight. Will be set up for my 4.5 hours on saturday. Will be a good first ride to just start seeing what things are like on the bike and how power correlates. Should be fun.

Psimet2001 12-05-08 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ridethecliche (Post 7967050)
Is there any particular calculation I can use to figure out how much to raise my saddle if I want to move forward 1 cm? I have a 56cm CAAD9 seattube angle is 73.5 degrees.

PS: Are those numbers starting to make sense?

Gotta get to work, but raising your saddle won't move your seat forward. It moves it back. I know you know that so I'm guessing I'm missing something in your description. Apart from that you can figure out legs of the virtual triangle by using trig.

In general the amount you move the saddle up and down would result in fore-aft movement = h Tan 73.5

where h=height change.

The numbers were starting to make sense (and depress) until I wnet to another training session and everything felt different for the same power numbers. meh. I've got like 4 rides with it. I'll figure it out.

EDIT: Example - just loaded the data from my Garmin (HR) and the PT. On Tuesday with high cadence stuff I was hovering around my LTHR (determined from a 10 mile TT in actual competition that I did in October - which makes sense 169-170) and driving just under 200W the whole time.

Last night we were doing intervals of the same length, just lower cadence and higher power output ...totally different story. I was running 275-300W at my LTHR for the same # of minutes.

Yes HR sucks, but it's all I really have right now...

waterrockets 12-05-08 07:33 AM

I'm pretty sure RTC wants to move his saddle forward, and is just asking how much to move it up to compensate.

RTC, just run the trig, knowing your seat tube angle.

ridethecliche 12-05-08 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterrockets (Post 7968511)
I'm pretty sure RTC wants to move his saddle forward, and is just asking how much to move it up to compensate.

RTC, just run the trig, knowing your seat tube angle.

Word!

Thanks.

I think I'll try using a plumb bob to keep the saddle setback the same even after moving it. Use that with the trig.

ridethecliche 12-05-08 08:02 AM

Tidecrazy, let us know how things go!

Good luck and enjoy the PM!

waterrockets 12-05-08 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ridethecliche (Post 7968607)
Word!

Thanks.

I think I'll try using a plumb bob to keep the saddle setback the same even after moving it. Use that with the trig.

Hang on, if you want to move the saddle forward, that would be changing the setback. Generally, I think of moving the saddle in an arc centered at the BB. So if you want to move forward 1cm, you'd project that onto the arc, get an angle, and break it up into the two components parallel to the saddle rails and parallel to the seatpost.

Psimet2001 12-05-08 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterrockets (Post 7969008)
Hang on, if you want to move the saddle forward, that would be changing the setback. Generally, I think of moving the saddle in an arc centered at the BB. So if you want to move forward 1cm, you'd project that onto the arc, get an angle, and break it up into the two components parallel to the saddle rails and parallel to the seatpost.

Just take a piece of string and cut it to length measuring between a point on the saddle and the center of the BB. Move the saddle forward and then use the same string to gauge how far up to move it.

I'm a practical engineer...not so much a paper one. EDIT: think of me as a machinist.

kudude 12-05-08 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 (Post 7969112)
Just take a piece of string and cut it to length measuring between a point on the saddle and the center of the BB. Move the saddle forward and then use the same string to gauge how far up to move it.

I'm a practical engineer...not so much a paper one. EDIT: think of me as a machinist.

ridthecliche: listen to him.

machinists blow my mind. all the ones i've met have been way to good at what they do.

waterrockets 12-05-08 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 (Post 7969112)
Just take a piece of string and cut it to length measuring between a point on the saddle and the center of the BB. Move the saddle forward and then use the same string to gauge how far up to move it.

I'm a practical engineer...not so much a paper one. EDIT: think of me as a machinist.

Yeah, it's much better to do without measuring. Good point. When I'm at home, I think like a woodworker, but when I'm at work I tend to think like a software engineer --- thinking about setting up a spreadsheet to produce the raw measurements.

One thing to be careful with: watch out for string stretch. If you have any wire, that may be more reliable.

C Law 12-05-08 11:05 AM

tape measure?

Psimet2001 12-05-08 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterrockets (Post 7969452)
One thing to be careful with: watch out for string stretch. If you have any wire, that may be more reliable.

:D - I thought the same thing about 5 minutes after posting this....I was like "I hope he doesn't pull real hard on it".

+1 to wire.

I guess in my mind I was thinking "well he'll have a plumb bob in his hand. Mine has string on it....I'd Cut the string and just use that to measure......"

My mind is a scary place...

waterrockets 12-05-08 11:23 AM

:lol:

Yeah, it's like the thinking that has me using story sticks for home projects. I really try not to ever measure anything.

ridethecliche 12-05-08 11:39 AM

I'm reconsidering this change now. I messed with things on the trainer for a bit yesterday and then changed the setup back. Now I have a saddle sore...

Probably raised it too high and tried to pedal fast and the hip rocking probably got to me. Blargh!


Anyway, regarding power stuff. If anyone wants to see how Basso is doing, check out his SRM files!

http://www.mapeisport.it/IvanBasso/?LNG=EN

Edit: Changed my position back, but I'm experimenting with flipping my stem. I'm more comfortable on the handlebars this way, but my back hurts a little bit after a while. I'm going to go to the LBS tomorrow and get two 2.5 mm spacers and a longer bolt for the compression plug if needed. If I use both the spacers, I'll be at 3.5cm of spacers, but I'll have a more comfortable reach to the bars and be a little more aero. Not the ideal setup but I think I'll be comfortable that way.

Edit 2: Can't put spacers under the stem due to steerer tube height. I had to remove a 5mm spacer. I think I'm going to have to flip my stem lest my back get super unhappy.

kudude 12-06-08 05:19 PM

what's IF? (i know the acronym -- how is it computed?)

sgrundy 12-06-08 05:27 PM

Np/ftp

mista_chewey 12-06-08 09:06 PM

so i just did my ftp power test with the 20mins interval....what a pitiful result...only 2.5watts/kg

should i do 5mins intervals at 100% ftp? or do 1hr at 90% like in that sst to get faster results?
i need to start racing next season

ridethecliche 12-06-08 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mista_chewey (Post 7977694)
so i just did my ftp power test with the 20mins interval....what a pitiful result...only 2.5watts/kg

should i do 5mins intervals at 100% ftp? or do 1hr at 90% like in that sst to get faster results?
i need to start racing next season

Don't be ashamed of your numbers, they'll get much better if you work hard.

Try starting with 20 min at 90% and see if you can hold it for longer. If you can, then keep going. If your wattage feels too easy after a bit, then work a little harder.

Also, try doing a MAP test and see if it correlates to the wattage you got from your FTP test.

mista_chewey 12-06-08 10:04 PM

will do man...not too ashamed of the number though just disappointed....looking at the chart closely i see dead spots in my interval where i was putting way less power than i should've and my HR dropped.

ridethecliche 12-06-08 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ridethecliche (Post 7963431)
I figured I'd waste an hour today and play around with my fit and see how things affected power. I moved my saddle up about 5mm and forward about 1.2cm.

Using PE when I do my 90% SST intervals @220 watts, I saw a wattage of about 270 watts. Unfortunately, I figure a side effect of this is going to be premature fatigue due to different muscle use. I had everything marked on my saddle and post, and since I've been making gains in the current position, I don't want to change things too much.
I moved the saddle up 3mm and forward 3mm.

Edit: Is it a really dumb idea to mess with position like this when there are no comfort or other issues?

Answer: Yes. Yes it is. GADDAMMIT!

mista_chewey 12-06-08 10:58 PM

lol

TideCrazy3193 12-07-08 08:22 PM

How many rides have to be logged into WKO for your performance management chart (TSB, ATL, CTL) becomes active?

I have two rides in WKO and I'm getting nothing.

ridethecliche 12-07-08 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TideCrazy3193 (Post 7982460)
How many rides have to be logged into WKO for your performance management chart (TSB, ATL, CTL) becomes active?

I have two rides in WKO and I'm getting nothing.

Have you entered an FTP yet?


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