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Old 08-29-09, 12:16 PM   #1376
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i just made monthly mean maximal charts in wko+ for may, june, july, august and i'm getting sightly worse instead of better; should i take a month off or something? could i be limiting my performance by looking at the meter? could it be the heat?
closer examination shows 7% improvement in 5 min efforts; overall improvement in the 2-5 minute range; this is where I've been doing a fair amount of work lately

i need a tool to compare mean-max silos for arbitrary time periods such as weekly, monthly, quarterly, annually; silos like 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 sec, and 2-10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 min, and 1 hour; i'd also like to control the data sets and create groupings by route of a particular test, a testing technique, etc.

this might a job for something like mysql
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Old 08-29-09, 03:35 PM   #1377
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Alright. So I raced...

What now?

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Old 08-29-09, 06:29 PM   #1378
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OK just rode with my PM for the first time today. I left the default settings on the 705 for the Power Zones since I had no idea what i would have. Todays ride was 75 miles over three good sized climbs in this area.

The interval in question is up Mount Weather for the DC area locals. I didnt go all out because I knew i had about three hours left of riding. The average of the just under 20 minutes was 297Watts. My question is, is this a good number to base my power zones off of for now? Particularly for a 12 mile TT next Saturday, or should I aim higher?

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Old 08-29-09, 07:37 PM   #1379
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Thanks, much appreciated, hallelujah that I won't be doing that again soon (hmm, maybe in a race...nah, nevermind)...I don't have any training zones with respect to power -- happy to receive guidance on how to do it (but, I can search online and I suspect I could find something, so, if it is complicated to post guidance, no problemo)...
Well, reading through this is a really good start. Then read it again in the morning. Pay attention to RPE and the number of check marks in Table 2.

In general, you look at your race limiters (what happens in races that prevents you from getting closer to a win), and associate that with something you can train.

You have to build it around a training peak though, but if you're past a base build and not yet on a plateau, you can start tweaking specificity with notable improvements. The common limiter, of course, is FTP, and that's where the check marks come in.

Anyway, if you start focusing on SST, then see what kinds of power you're able to hold, I'd think a normalized power in the 250-260W range for a 45-minute chunk of a 60 minute ride, if repeatable several times a week, would back up the 290W FTP estimate... without messing up your training with more tests.
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Old 08-29-09, 08:50 PM   #1380
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^^ Copy that, thanks!...after a first read of your post and the power guidance at the end of the link, I'm almost tempted to test out some several things tomorrow in a race...there is one limiter that I have in mind and I am going to test out some stuff related to it tomorrow...I'll be back ;-)
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Old 08-29-09, 11:14 PM   #1381
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Set a new power record for 5 min at 340 watts or 4.54 w/kg. Felt I could go harder but I had several hours riding left (I still toasted myself though... ). I don't understand how pros can do 6 w/kg for FTP. >.<
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Old 08-30-09, 09:51 AM   #1382
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Do you guys think 270 is a good guess for my FTP?

Last edited by dmb2786; 08-30-09 at 11:57 AM. Reason: pic too small
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Old 08-30-09, 11:48 AM   #1383
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that picture is way to small. make it atleast a 1000 wide or cut off the right side and make it like 800 wide.
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Old 08-30-09, 11:58 AM   #1384
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that picture is way to small. make it atleast a 1000 wide or cut off the right side and make it like 800 wide.
Don't know the measurements, but it's better now.
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Old 08-30-09, 12:06 PM   #1385
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Don't know the measurements, but it's better now.
I think you just need to do the 20 min intervals or a MAP test to figure it out.

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Old 08-30-09, 12:10 PM   #1386
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I think you just need to do the 20 min intervals.
will do. I raced on Saturday and I'm not riding today. I'll do it tmw or Tuesday. Just wanted to see if I could get a good estimate. I'll probably use the HRM to pace myself.
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Old 08-30-09, 12:40 PM   #1387
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will do. I raced on Saturday and I'm not riding today. I'll do it tmw or Tuesday. Just wanted to see if I could get a good estimate. I'll probably use the HRM to pace myself.
You don't pace during a test. Go by feel.

Or just do a MAP test.
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Old 08-30-09, 02:53 PM   #1388
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Full details about a crit today in Race Report section, but, I'm pretty psyched by some of the data from today's race in, as I understood it, a strong field, including some pro-am racers...

7th place
time 72' 50"
ap 208.5
np 243.0
mean cadence (w/ zeroes) 64.5
mean mph 27.35
mean mph in last 25" sprint 35.75

The small adjustment that I made in my sprinting technique helped...I was closing at the end...my 15s and 30s max were in the last second of the race at the line...the power numbers may not be incredible, but, when considering the average of 27.35 mph for the race and the energy I could put out to average almost 36 mph for the last 25 seconds of the race (it was a flat finish)...there is little doubt that I'm learning some good stuff from training with power....

I'm not sure whether this is a good way to go with respect to assessing power data, but, I am less inclined to automatically assume that only higher numbers can mean better results...yes, greater power, all else being equal, is better...but, I'm less inclined to be concerned about "lower" power numbers...perhaps, training with power is helping me become a more efficient rider???
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Old 08-30-09, 03:34 PM   #1389
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Do you guys think 270 is a good guess for my FTP?
Not with that chart.
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Old 08-30-09, 04:24 PM   #1390
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Not with that chart.
needs more data?
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Old 08-30-09, 05:47 PM   #1391
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needs more data?
Just do the tests brah.
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Old 08-30-09, 05:52 PM   #1392
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Just do the tests brah.
will do. i was just trying to figure out what he meant. i "just started training with power". just trying to learn here brah.

I decided i'm testing on tuesday.
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Old 08-30-09, 07:13 PM   #1393
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Full details about a crit today in Race Report section, but, I'm pretty psyched by some of the data from today's race in, as I understood it, a strong field, including some pro-am racers...

7th place
time 72' 50"
ap 208.5
np 243.0
mean cadence (w/ zeroes) 64.5
mean mph 27.35
mean mph in last 25" sprint 35.75

The small adjustment that I made in my sprinting technique helped...I was closing at the end...my 15s and 30s max were in the last second of the race at the line...the power numbers may not be incredible, but, when considering the average of 27.35 mph for the race and the energy I could put out to average almost 36 mph for the last 25 seconds of the race (it was a flat finish)...there is little doubt that I'm learning some good stuff from training with power....
that's a quick race there, nice finish

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I'm not sure whether this is a good way to go with respect to assessing power data, but, I am less inclined to automatically assume that only higher numbers can mean better results...yes, greater power, all else being equal, is better...but, I'm less inclined to be concerned about "lower" power numbers...perhaps, training with power is helping me become a more efficient rider???
Yep, that's the way I've gone. I've been frustrated to not see the gains the past few months (due to family circumstances/changes reducing my training time). Still, I'm learning to race better, and it's exposed other tactical areas of improvement. Good stuff.
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Old 08-31-09, 01:15 PM   #1394
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Full details about a crit today in Race Report section, but, I'm pretty psyched by some of the data from today's race in, as I understood it, a strong field, including some pro-am racers...

7th place
time 72' 50"
ap 208.5
np 243.0
mean cadence (w/ zeroes) 64.5
mean mph 27.35
mean mph in last 25" sprint 35.75

The small adjustment that I made in my sprinting technique helped...I was closing at the end...my 15s and 30s max were in the last second of the race at the line...the power numbers may not be incredible, but, when considering the average of 27.35 mph for the race and the energy I could put out to average almost 36 mph for the last 25 seconds of the race (it was a flat finish)...there is little doubt that I'm learning some good stuff from training with power....

I'm not sure whether this is a good way to go with respect to assessing power data, but, I am less inclined to automatically assume that only higher numbers can mean better results...yes, greater power, all else being equal, is better...but, I'm less inclined to be concerned about "lower" power numbers...perhaps, training with power is helping me become a more efficient rider???
Average and normalized power for the last 5-10 minutes? Average power for the last 1 to 2 minutes? That is where it counts. I'm surprised NP was only 248w for a 75min race -- you must have done a good job conserving energy.

How much do you weigh?
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Old 08-31-09, 09:50 PM   #1395
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Average and normalized power for the last 5-10 minutes? Average power for the last 1 to 2 minutes? That is where it counts. I'm surprised NP was only 248w for a 75min race -- you must have done a good job conserving energy.

How much do you weigh?
Here's what I get (not using WKO+ yet...still using Excel and computing myself):

..............AP......NP*
Last 10' 230.5 269.9
Last 5' 260.7 302.3
Last 2' 333.9 360.5
Last 1' 426.5 456.6
Last 25" 606.7 ---

* Since computing NP involves use of 30s, computations went back to only start time + 30 (e.g., for computing NP of last 10', I only used 30s starting at 9' 30" out from finish)...

My weight is usually in the 168-170 lbs range

From what I've read in BF about folks max power for some of those time intervals, I don't believe that any of my numbers for that race are special...although, maybe they are considered good for the end of a 73 minute race...I don't know...

As for conserving energy, well, maybe I am good at it when I use low cadence or/and riding smart...but, I was pretty aggressive early on in the race in helping to chase down the group off the front and I took some pulls here and there throughout the race...I never went hard for a prime, but, I was not sitting back watching paint dry...I felt I was charging pretty hard in the sprint...I'm assuming that averaging just under 36 mph on a flat for the last 25 seconds is at least decent...

I'm definitely curious to hear any insights that you have because I'm always looking to learn more about my riding...even more so now that I have power data to analyze...

Here are some date to compare for a couple of races, a crit on the same course on Aug 9 where I was otb after 31'53" and the Aug 30 race from yesterday

Aug 9
For 31' 53" (I was otb at this point)
ap = 214.0
np = 254.5
mph = 25.73
cadence = 75.2

Aug 30
For first 31' 53" of the race (I came in 7th and competed well with some good riders)
ap = 216.3
np = 252.3
mph = 27.3
cadence = 68.0

I don't record wind speed, so, maybe there was a difference for these 2 race dates...but, I can say without a doubt, I felt very strong and able on August 30 and not so able on Aug 9...the ap and np are about the same...but, the cadence is significantly lower and the mph is significantly higher on Aug 30...

For my past 4 races, I have gone with low cadence, and, in each of these races I have felt so much stronger throughout the race and at the end, and, my mean mph has been 26.9, 26.979, 26.5 and 27.35 (the August 30 race)...prior to these races, I'd had one race with an average mph of 26.9 and all others below 26mph...


Edit (added on September 1, 2009):
JPradun - Some other stats from last 10' through last 25" for Aug 30, 2009 crit

............mean....mean
.............mph...cadence
Last 10' 28.37 63.7
Last 5'.. 28.59 64.3
Last 2'.. 29.86 71.7
Last 1'.. 31.98 83.5
Last 25" 35.75 94.6

Last edited by bostongarden; 09-01-09 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 09-01-09, 07:18 PM   #1396
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I'm still trying to peg my FTP ... my best 3 minute is 408 watts and my best 20 minute is 306 watts. That would put my FTP at around 285-290. Does that sound right? I haven't been able to do an hour test yet, but that's next up to see if I can replicate that for an hour.
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Old 09-01-09, 07:34 PM   #1397
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I'm still trying to peg my FTP ... my best 3 minute is 408 watts and my best 20 minute is 306 watts. That would put my FTP at around 285-290. Does that sound right? I haven't been able to do an hour test yet, but that's next up to see if I can replicate that for an hour.
Sounds like it would be close. Is that from a Monod chart?
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Old 09-01-09, 07:56 PM   #1398
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I did my 20 min TT. I got 261 watts. That puts me at 248 for FTP.

I'm guessing it's not black and white though? I think I'm gonna test again soon. maybe on a climb. there's a long enough one around here.

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Old 09-01-09, 09:13 PM   #1399
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Sounds like it would be close. Is that from a Monod chart?
Yeah. Seems high to me but I'm still getting the feel for the powermeter.
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Old 09-01-09, 09:46 PM   #1400
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Yeah. Seems high to me but I'm still getting the feel for the powermeter.
All of the estimation methods (e.g. monod) spit out numbers for me that are much higher than I think I can sustain steadily for an hour, but are spot on what I can do NP for an hour. Go figure.
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