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  1. #1651
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    Is this descriptive of prescriptive? Why should active recovery be Quadrant 3 as opposed to Quadrant 4?
    It is my understanding that Quadrant III is for active recovery and not Quadrant IV because the higher pedal velocities at the same pedal force would put your power levels over active recovery levels. Quadrant IV is associated with higher power levels (as in around FTP or a little lower) that happen to be at high velocity too. In the example posted the persons FTP is 300 watts and you can see the line corresponding to all the velocities and forces. Active recovery should be under 55% or so of FTP. That means for an FTP of 300 watts active recovery is less than 165 watts. The border of Quadrant III and Quadrant IV is around 1.42 m/s and under 211N. So middle of the pedal force is 105 N. 105 N and 1.42 m/s is ~149 watts. So as you can see I am sure it is possible to do active recovery in the beginning of Quadrant IV but I think it is just a guidline to be at the very least close to Quadrant III. Along middle of Quadrant IV is over 2 m/s (~110 rpms). I am not sure that much active recovery should be done at those rpm's as even if the power levels are low the fatigue from high velocity is still there.
    Last edited by Jynx; 12-23-09 at 04:34 PM.

  2. #1652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
    It is my understanding that Quadrant III is for active recovery and not Quadrant IV because the higher pedal velocities at the same pedal force would put your power levels over active recovery levels.
    Who said anything about the same pedal force? All subthreshold isopower curves are continuous throughout quadrants 3 and 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
    I am not sure that much active recovery should be done at those rpm's ...
    Then why did you say above that no active recovery should be done there?

  3. #1653
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    Who said anything about the same pedal force? All subthreshold isopower curves are continuous throughout quadrants 3 and 4.

    Then why did you say above that no active recovery should be done there?
    My point is that at the beginning of quadrant 4 you become very close to going over 55% of FTP which seems to be the accepted place for active recovery to end. Also I am not saying that active recovery is ONLY quadrant 3 and as soon as you just cross into quadrant 4 you are no longer doing active recovery. The example I gave actually showed that the beginning of quadrant 4 is still active recovery.

  4. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
    My point is that at the beginning of quadrant 4 you become very close to going over 55% of FTP which seems to be the accepted place for active recovery to end.
    I don't know how you define the beginning of quadrant 4, but I do know that any power from 0 to FTP can be accommodated at any cadence above that which divides quadrants 3 and 4 or pedal force below the quadrant 2/3 boundary value. Sketch in the 165 W and 100 W isopower line and it should be clear.

  5. #1655
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    I don't know how you define the beginning of quadrant 4, but I do know that any power from 0 to FTP can be accommodated at any cadence above that which divides quadrants 3 and 4 or pedal force below the quadrant 2/3 boundary value. Sketch in the 165 W and 100 W isopower line and it should be clear.
    I understand what you are saying and you are correct. I was oversimplifying in places to keep it as simple as possible as I do not know what background people have. I was calling the beginning of quadrant 4 the 1.42 m/s line. I was using the average average effective pedal force of the quadrant which would have been ~105 N and then using that as the beginning of the quadrant. I was then using that single data point as the "beginning" of quadrant 4 to set as the end of active recovery. I know you have a math background so I definately oversimplified for you. Without oversimplifying, like you said any power from 0 to FTP can be in quadrant 4 and even quadrant 3. Yes, 100 watts could be 50 N and 2 m/s which is towards the middle of quadrant 4.

    I am guessing your question is why is 100 watts (say 50 N and 2 m/s) which is clearly towards the middle of quadrant 4 not active recovery? My educated guess would be 2 m/s (~110 rpm) can not be active recovery due to the large amount of velocity leading to premature fatigue due to the fact it is way past the dividing line for the quadrants. I would assume that anything to the right of the 1.42 m/s pedal velocity line would lead to premature fatigue from excessive velocity and anything above the 211 N line would lead to premature fatigue due to excessive pedal force (for this specific example). This is my understanding of the benefits of quadrant analysis. To see the balance of your personal force and velocity ratios. Also this graph is solely based on the individual. Mine will look different from yours which will look different than this example. If I understand right that would make this descriptive.

    If you still feel quadrant 4 could be active recovery would you agree that 100 m/s and 1 N is active recovery? It is still 100 watts which falls into active recovery.

    Rereading the thread I see that I did oversimplify the boundaries way to much originally. Hopefully this post clarified. If I misunderstood what you were saying please let me know.
    Last edited by Jynx; 12-23-09 at 06:01 PM.

  6. #1656
    Senior Member slim_77's Avatar
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    the answer may be in here somewhere--but I'm too lazy to read 67 pages of PT questions/answers. sorry.

    Tech question:

    My head unit is not reading the PT hub (no sensor indicator, no readings). While I was on the rollers the other day it was giving me some strange watts, I stopped and zero'ed the torque and then it couldn't find the hub anymore. Just like that...

    I changed the bats two weeks ago (head unit and hub) the connectors are fine and in good contact, it still reads cadence fine. I didn't see any problem with the wire or sensor on the seat stays.

    Am I missing something? Any suggestions?
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  7. #1657
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    What are the basic/default power zones in WK0 based on or off? From reading it seems everyone is pretty much using Coggan Zones, which WK0 can calculate. Later.

  8. #1658
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    Quote Originally Posted by aham23 View Post
    What are the basic/default power zones in WK0 based on or off? From reading it seems everyone is pretty much using Coggan Zones, which WK0 can calculate. Later.
    With WKO+ you can use Coggan, Cycle-Smart or Richard Stern Power Levels. It will auto calculate the zones for what you choose based on the FTP you type in. I personally use the Coggan Power Levels.

  9. #1659
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    ^^^^ really? i must be missing the other options. the default are there, six of them, then under options Coggan is there to be calculated. i was just curious what or whos the default zones were. later.

  10. #1660
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    this is what mine looks like. is yours the same?


  11. #1661
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    ^^^^ ah ha. in 3.0 on Coggan Power Levels are showing up. i opened up 2.2 and it appears as you have shown above. interesting. thanks for the clarification. which are you using? later.

  12. #1662
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    i am using 2.2 i dont plan to upgrade to 3.0 for atleast a couple of months if at all. ill see what others say about the usefulness of it.

  13. #1663
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    I loaded the trial of 3.0 and played with it for an hour or so. Not impressed.

  14. #1664
    Senior Member slim_77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slim_77 View Post
    the answer may be in here somewhere--but I'm too lazy to read 67 pages of PT questions/answers. sorry.

    Tech question:

    My head unit is not reading the PT hub (no sensor indicator, no readings). While I was on the rollers the other day it was giving me some strange watts, I stopped and zero'ed the torque and then it couldn't find the hub anymore. Just like that...

    I changed the bats two weeks ago (head unit and hub) the connectors are fine and in good contact, it still reads cadence fine. I didn't see any problem with the wire or sensor on the seat stays.

    Am I missing something? Any suggestions?
    WR suggested it may be the harness and to test it against another working PT harness--if it fails, its the harness; if not...dunno (crossing my fingers its the harness.)
    gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

  15. #1665
    Senior Member dhale50's Avatar
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    I just ordered the Powertap Comp and as I wait, I have a few questions:

    1. Can someone explain what the "Interval" display is? When I do my 20 minute Threshold test, is this the function I use or is there a regular "time" display?

    2. Ideally, I will want power, speed and cadence all on the same screen. Can I then toggle to get the other stats (time, distance, time of day..etc)? Thanks

  16. #1666
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhale50 View Post
    I just ordered the Powertap Comp and as I wait, I have a few questions:

    1. Can someone explain what the "Interval" display is? When I do my 20 minute Threshold test, is this the function I use or is there a regular "time" display?

    2. Ideally, I will want power, speed and cadence all on the same screen. Can I then toggle to get the other stats (time, distance, time of day..etc)? Thanks
    2. You can have power, speed and cadence on the screen. The top line can be current power, max power or average power. The second line can be current speed, max speed or average speed. and the third line can be distance, time, current cadence, average cadence, energy, odometer, current heart rate, or average heart rate. You can go to time of day but it is a sequence of buttons. it can not be directly scrolled to. i do not even know how to check it but i know you can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhale50 View Post
    I just ordered the Powertap Comp and as I wait, I have a few questions:

    1. Can someone explain what the "Interval" display is? When I do my 20 minute Threshold test, is this the function I use or is there a regular "time" display?
    With Wko, you don't really need to use the interval function for your threshold test as you can view the peak 20min, 30min of the ride, but I use it. To get to that function, press and hold the mode button for a coupe of seconds and a "1" will pop up to the left of the speed. Press and hold mode to get back out of the function.

  18. #1668
    Senior Member dhale50's Avatar
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    thanks. So WKO+ allows you to take that 20 minute portion and get an average? Because the whole ride would include warmup/cooldown, but I really want the average power from that 20 minute portion, correct?

  19. #1669
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
    2. You can have power, speed and cadence on the screen. The top line can be current power, max power or average power. The second line can be current speed, max speed or average speed. and the third line can be distance, time, current cadence, average cadence, energy, odometer, current heart rate, or average heart rate. You can go to time of day but it is a sequence of buttons. it can not be directly scrolled to. i do not even know how to check it but i know you can.
    +1

    Some notes:

    You can set cadence as your "big" number instead of speed, otherwise you won't be able to see time and cadence at the same time. I find time to be one of the more important data during intervals (especially < 20' intervals). You don't need time of day during an interval

    dhale50: I'd recommend you read through the (downloadable) instructions for the head unit and see how intervals work. They're actually really handy. "Interval mode" is what brian416 mentioned, and it always displays information for the current interval (only). So, speed, distance, time, averages, everything is for the current interval. If you hit both buttons at the same time, it starts a new interval. So, for an interval workout, I hold left for 2s, starts interval mode and my first interval. When I finish, I tap both buttons, and "interval 2" will be my recovery interval. Interval 3 will be my next work interval, and so on.

    There's also an interval browse mode, where you can change which interval is being displayed (current or past intervals). This is really useful when I'm trying to push negative splits on hill repeats, or during the STUCI intervals, where the pace for the previous interval determines the target for the next one.
    Last edited by waterrockets; 01-04-10 at 02:21 PM.

  20. #1670
    Senior Member dhale50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    +1

    Some notes:

    You can set cadence as your "big" number instead of speed, otherwise you won't be able to see time and cadence at the same time. I find time to be one of the more important data during intervals (especially < 20' intervals).
    Great info. So, on my 20 minute test, when it's all said and done, the ride would be about an hour (including warmup and cooldown). Is it necessary to split it up in intervals? For example, interval 1- warmup, interval 2- threshold test, interval 3- cooldown.

    Or, just do the test and WKO allows me to take that 20 minute portion and get the average?

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    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhale50 View Post
    Great info. So, on my 20 minute test, when it's all said and done, the ride would be about an hour (including warmup and cooldown). Is it necessary to split it up in intervals? For example, interval 1- warmup, interval 2- threshold test, interval 3- cooldown.

    Or, just do the test and WKO allows me to take that 20 minute portion and get the average?
    You don't need to use interval mode at all, because WKO will help you figure everything out. It will pick the best 20' automatically, for every single ride (and best 5", 30", 1', 5', etc...).

    I like intervals because I've got a time display for that specific effort. For a 20' test, I would just ride there out of interval mode, hold "Mode" for 2", and start going hard just as the display shows the interval. Now I can glance down and see how much time has gone by. Also, if I look at avg W, I can see how I'm doing against my expected result.

  22. #1672
    ..... Jynx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhale50 View Post
    Great info. So, on my 20 minute test, when it's all said and done, the ride would be about an hour (including warmup and cooldown). Is it necessary to split it up in intervals? For example, interval 1- warmup, interval 2- threshold test, interval 3- cooldown.

    Or, just do the test and WKO allows me to take that 20 minute portion and get the average?

    I personally do not use the interval mode on my powertap. one of the other main screens will display max average power for :30, 1:00, 5:00 and 20:00. also like stated wko will automatically tell you your max power for all different times. the interval function may be beneficial if you want to compare a bunch of say 10 minute efforts. The intervals will allow you to easily get the data for each but really you can just look at the ride and highlight the sections manually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
    I personally do not use the interval mode on my powertap. one of the other main screens will display max average power for :30, 1:00, 5:00 and 20:00. also like stated wko will automatically tell you your max power for all different times. the interval function may be beneficial if you want to compare a bunch of say 10 minute efforts. The intervals will allow you to easily get the data for each but really you can just look at the ride and highlight the sections manually.
    you dont mark your intervals while you're doing them? how do you keep track of how many you've done when you're doing 8x3' or 10x1' etc.?

  24. #1674
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    you dont mark your intervals while you're doing them? how do you keep track of how many you've done when you're doing 8x3' or 10x1' etc.?
    I am not super structured as fas as doing exactly 10 1' intervals and such. If I go out and want to do 10 1' intervals doing 1 on 1 off. I will remeber my start time and go until 20 minutes after. If I miss one or do an extra I don't worry about it.

  25. #1675
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    For workouts like Friel's pace intervals (My training partners and I call them STUCI intervals -- same time until can't improve), you have to use interval mode to know the exact average of your last interval.

    Jynx is right though, for less structured workouts, it's not important. It sure is convenient though.

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