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  1. #201
    RustyTainte substructure's Avatar
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    Yet again: Nice. And thank you.

  2. #202
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    Twas my suggestion! I wanted to prove that I'd done something useful around here. Heh.

    Thanks gary!
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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  3. #203
    Senior Member garysol1's Avatar
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    ridethecliche twisted my arm till I had no other choice......

  4. #204
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Ha...I was just looking for this. I have been learning a lot, but still may just sit and watch to see what happens.

  5. #205
    Glorified Blender mikearena's Avatar
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    Let's play diagnose the Powertap problem!

    Alright, here's the background: I didn't "just" start training with power, but this seemed like the most appropriate place to pose this question.

    My FTP was currently set at 315. This was based on the NP from an hour long race that was pretty tough. I was not well rested for that race (two weeks ago) and haven't been really "well rested" in about 12 weeks. I took both Saturday and Sunday off before today's workout. For the first time in months, my TSB is above 0.

    I set out with the goal to start at 350w and see how long I could hold it (hey, why not?). I estimated this would take between 8 and 20 minutes. It's raining today, so I was stuck inside on the rollers. No resistance unit is attached, but a towel was shoved underneath to make it a little tougher.

    I started the workout and I felt great throughout the warm-up. I started the interval and RPE was pretty low. About eight minutes into it, I stopped pedaling briefly to make sure the PT was zeroed. It was. I ramped it up about 10 watts and kept going. 20 minutes rolled around and I stopped again to make sure it was still zeroed. It was. I figured I'd go for another 10 minutes. Held it steady for 5, and then ramped it up for final 5 minutes, leaving me definitely gassed at the end.

    So here's the deal: the results put my FTP well above my previous estimate. Could this much of an increase be seen from taking a few days off and coming in fresh? Was the PT reading high? Is there any way to correct the data?

    Data and graph below:



    Thanks for the help! Sorry for the novel.

  6. #206
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    Is it wireless? Do you have fluorescent lights near your rollers?

    It sounds like you were just rested to me, but that's a huge gain. I dunno. Weird.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  7. #207
    Glorified Blender mikearena's Avatar
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    Good point, it's wired. No florescent lights anywhere near me.

  8. #208
    Glorified Blender mikearena's Avatar
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    Ah, figured it out. Even though the PT was reading 0 watts, looking back at the data file, it was reading 1.13 N M on the hub torque. Went through and subtracted 1.13 from all the torque and re-calculated all the power numbers. Magically, I'm slow again.

    Thanks for the help!

  9. #209
    squid
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    Does anyone know a guideline to use for when or when not to combine workouts? Specifically, what amount of time between workouts would cause it to be two separate workouts as opposed to one long one?

    I ask because it can make a large difference to the TSS that is calculated.

  10. #210
    umd
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    It shouldn't make a huge difference unless you are counting the time in between as part of the workout. For example, if you have a garmin with auto-pause on, it won't count the time during the pause into the average/normalized power but it will still count the time for the TSS. If you cut out the intervening time, it won't be included for the TSS. It will make some difference from putting in a different file but not huge.

  11. #211
    squid
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    It shouldn't make a huge difference unless you are counting the time in between as part of the workout. For example, if you have a garmin with auto-pause on, it won't count the time during the pause into the average/normalized power but it will still count the time for the TSS. If you cut out the intervening time, it won't be included for the TSS. It will make some difference from putting in a different file but not huge.
    The issue is not whether zeros are counted, but the non-additive nature of TSS. If you split a ride into two rides, calculate TSS for each ride and add the two TSS scores together, you generally get a lower number than if you calculate TSS over the entire ride. The greater the difference between the IF's of the two halves, the greater the difference will be between the sum of the halves and the whole.

    For example, I generally have to end my warmup about 20 minutes before the start of a race. The IF of the warmup will be much lower than the IF of the race, so it makes a large difference in this case. So, is this one workout or two? What if there was only 10 minutes between? How about 1 hour? etc.

  12. #212
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by nafun View Post
    The issue is not whether zeros are counted, but the non-additive nature of TSS. If you split a ride into two rides, calculate TSS for each ride and add the two TSS scores together, you generally get a lower number than if you calculate TSS over the entire ride. The greater the difference between the IF's of the two halves, the greater the difference will be between the sum of the halves and the whole.

    For example, I generally have to end my warmup about 20 minutes before the start of a race. The IF of the warmup will be much lower than the IF of the race, so it makes a large difference in this case. So, is this one workout or two? What if there was only 10 minutes between? How about 1 hour? etc.
    I understand that, I just haven't seen significant differences either way. I tried splitting off the after-coffee-shop-ride-home portion of the weekend rides and it didn't make more than a few TSS points difference. THat said, I generally start a new file except for the aforementioned coffee stops.

  13. #213
    Senior Member tanhalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nafun View Post
    Does anyone know a guideline to use for when or when not to combine workouts? Specifically, what amount of time between workouts would cause it to be two separate workouts as opposed to one long one?

    I ask because it can make a large difference to the TSS that is calculated.
    I thought that was answered on the wattage google group within the last week or so...and wasn't the "general guideline" that if the break is long enough to take a power nap, then they should be separate?

    Seriously, my experience is the same as umd's...if you're curious what the effect is for your own files, just break them into two and see what difference it makes and if you feel it's "significant" or not...

  14. #214
    Senior Member tanhalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nafun View Post
    The issue is not whether zeros are counted, but the non-additive nature of TSS. If you split a ride into two rides, calculate TSS for each ride and add the two TSS scores together, you generally get a lower number than if you calculate TSS over the entire ride. The greater the difference between the IF's of the two halves, the greater the difference will be between the sum of the halves and the whole.

    For example, I generally have to end my warmup about 20 minutes before the start of a race. The IF of the warmup will be much lower than the IF of the race, so it makes a large difference in this case. So, is this one workout or two? What if there was only 10 minutes between? How about 1 hour? etc.
    I think you know the answer to that one already, don't you?

    If you don't think there are any "residual" effects of your warmup on the race you do...why they heck did you do the warmup in the first place?

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    I understand that, I just haven't seen significant differences either way. I tried splitting off the after-coffee-shop-ride-home portion of the weekend rides and it didn't make more than a few TSS points difference. THat said, I generally start a new file except for the aforementioned coffee stops.
    Ok, good to know, thanks.

  16. #216
    squid
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanhalt View Post
    I think you know the answer to that one already, don't you?

    If you don't think there are any "residual" effects of your warmup on the race you do...why they heck did you do the warmup in the first place?
    Ok, so the consensus is basically that is doesn't matter and i shouldn't worry about it. Sounds good to me.

    As to why i do the warmup, i have no idea. Knowing nothing about physiology, i would have to say because of a mix of routine, superstition, mythology, and maybe a hope that it might help. Kind of like why a pitcher spits before every pitch.

  17. #217
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    Tanhalt mentioned the wattage forum--huge thread over there that will make you not want to ever bother with it again.

    Ok. I know what Pw:HR is, anybody know what Pa:HR is? What does it measure?
    EOL Ra Ra F
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  18. #218
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apus^2 View Post
    Tanhalt mentioned the wattage forum--huge thread over there that will make you not want to ever bother with it again.

    Ok. I know what Pw:HR is, anybody know what Pa:HR is? What does it measure?
    I believe it is pace (ie speed) coupled with hr
    Last edited by umd; 02-04-09 at 08:07 AM.

  19. #219
    Senior Member
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    Cool. I guess that is a running () thing and useless for us.
    EOL Ra Ra F
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  20. #220
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    I have a question directed more towards the SRM users.

    Today on my ride, I zeroed at the start of the ride, then about halfway through my ride, when I rezero'ed the offset was up about 20-25.

    Does this mean that all my data was reading low at the point when the offset drifted up?

    I did a 'test' and set the offset while I was pedaling hard, and everything registered in the low teens when I was gunning it after doing it. So I guess it was reading low while the offset drifted up, no?
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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  21. #221
    slow up hills kudude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
    I have a question directed more towards the SRM users.

    Today on my ride, I zeroed at the start of the ride, then about halfway through my ride, when I rezero'ed the offset was up about 20-25.

    Does this mean that all my data was reading low at the point when the offset drifted up?

    I did a 'test' and set the offset while I was pedaling hard, and everything registered in the low teens when I was gunning it after doing it. So I guess it was reading low while the offset drifted up, no?
    i think you answered your own question
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  22. #222
    Village Idiot
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    Quote Originally Posted by kudude View Post
    i think you answered your own question
    Just wanted to make sure
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  23. #223
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    I thought SRM were supposed to be accurate. Are you saying that through the course of a ride your power readings drifted by 25 Watts? That's crazy.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  24. #224
    slow up hills kudude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    I thought SRM were supposed to be accurate. Are you saying that through the course of a ride your power readings drifted by 25 Watts? That's crazy.
    the torque counter shifted by 25hz. this doesn't correlate to 25 watts for the most part, although the error is related to the angular velocity.
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_tom View Post
    Cycling isn't a sport. It's more like a really, really expensive eating disorder.

  25. #225
    Village Idiot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    I thought SRM were supposed to be accurate. Are you saying that through the course of a ride your power readings drifted by 25 Watts? That's crazy.
    Temperature changes etc. Accuracy and calibration don't go hand in hand

    I normally rezero while spinning backwards or holding the crankarms steady, normally while descending. I do it like once every 30-60 mins depending on temp changes. If the temp doesn't change more than a few degrees, I don't bother.
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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