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Old 01-26-09, 12:44 PM   #201
substructure
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Yet again: Nice. And thank you.
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Old 01-26-09, 01:30 PM   #202
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Twas my suggestion! I wanted to prove that I'd done something useful around here. Heh.

Thanks gary!
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Old 01-26-09, 01:55 PM   #203
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ridethecliche twisted my arm till I had no other choice......
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Old 01-26-09, 02:23 PM   #204
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Ha...I was just looking for this. I have been learning a lot, but still may just sit and watch to see what happens.
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Old 02-02-09, 03:58 PM   #205
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Let's play diagnose the Powertap problem!

Alright, here's the background: I didn't "just" start training with power, but this seemed like the most appropriate place to pose this question.

My FTP was currently set at 315. This was based on the NP from an hour long race that was pretty tough. I was not well rested for that race (two weeks ago) and haven't been really "well rested" in about 12 weeks. I took both Saturday and Sunday off before today's workout. For the first time in months, my TSB is above 0.

I set out with the goal to start at 350w and see how long I could hold it (hey, why not?). I estimated this would take between 8 and 20 minutes. It's raining today, so I was stuck inside on the rollers. No resistance unit is attached, but a towel was shoved underneath to make it a little tougher.

I started the workout and I felt great throughout the warm-up. I started the interval and RPE was pretty low. About eight minutes into it, I stopped pedaling briefly to make sure the PT was zeroed. It was. I ramped it up about 10 watts and kept going. 20 minutes rolled around and I stopped again to make sure it was still zeroed. It was. I figured I'd go for another 10 minutes. Held it steady for 5, and then ramped it up for final 5 minutes, leaving me definitely gassed at the end.

So here's the deal: the results put my FTP well above my previous estimate. Could this much of an increase be seen from taking a few days off and coming in fresh? Was the PT reading high? Is there any way to correct the data?

Data and graph below:



Thanks for the help! Sorry for the novel.
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Old 02-02-09, 04:14 PM   #206
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Is it wireless? Do you have fluorescent lights near your rollers?

It sounds like you were just rested to me, but that's a huge gain. I dunno. Weird.
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Old 02-02-09, 04:21 PM   #207
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Good point, it's wired. No florescent lights anywhere near me.
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Old 02-03-09, 02:42 PM   #208
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Ah, figured it out. Even though the PT was reading 0 watts, looking back at the data file, it was reading 1.13 N M on the hub torque. Went through and subtracted 1.13 from all the torque and re-calculated all the power numbers. Magically, I'm slow again.

Thanks for the help!
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Old 02-03-09, 05:18 PM   #209
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Does anyone know a guideline to use for when or when not to combine workouts? Specifically, what amount of time between workouts would cause it to be two separate workouts as opposed to one long one?

I ask because it can make a large difference to the TSS that is calculated.
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Old 02-03-09, 05:29 PM   #210
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It shouldn't make a huge difference unless you are counting the time in between as part of the workout. For example, if you have a garmin with auto-pause on, it won't count the time during the pause into the average/normalized power but it will still count the time for the TSS. If you cut out the intervening time, it won't be included for the TSS. It will make some difference from putting in a different file but not huge.
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Old 02-03-09, 05:50 PM   #211
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It shouldn't make a huge difference unless you are counting the time in between as part of the workout. For example, if you have a garmin with auto-pause on, it won't count the time during the pause into the average/normalized power but it will still count the time for the TSS. If you cut out the intervening time, it won't be included for the TSS. It will make some difference from putting in a different file but not huge.
The issue is not whether zeros are counted, but the non-additive nature of TSS. If you split a ride into two rides, calculate TSS for each ride and add the two TSS scores together, you generally get a lower number than if you calculate TSS over the entire ride. The greater the difference between the IF's of the two halves, the greater the difference will be between the sum of the halves and the whole.

For example, I generally have to end my warmup about 20 minutes before the start of a race. The IF of the warmup will be much lower than the IF of the race, so it makes a large difference in this case. So, is this one workout or two? What if there was only 10 minutes between? How about 1 hour? etc.
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Old 02-03-09, 06:29 PM   #212
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The issue is not whether zeros are counted, but the non-additive nature of TSS. If you split a ride into two rides, calculate TSS for each ride and add the two TSS scores together, you generally get a lower number than if you calculate TSS over the entire ride. The greater the difference between the IF's of the two halves, the greater the difference will be between the sum of the halves and the whole.

For example, I generally have to end my warmup about 20 minutes before the start of a race. The IF of the warmup will be much lower than the IF of the race, so it makes a large difference in this case. So, is this one workout or two? What if there was only 10 minutes between? How about 1 hour? etc.
I understand that, I just haven't seen significant differences either way. I tried splitting off the after-coffee-shop-ride-home portion of the weekend rides and it didn't make more than a few TSS points difference. THat said, I generally start a new file except for the aforementioned coffee stops.
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Old 02-03-09, 07:01 PM   #213
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Does anyone know a guideline to use for when or when not to combine workouts? Specifically, what amount of time between workouts would cause it to be two separate workouts as opposed to one long one?

I ask because it can make a large difference to the TSS that is calculated.
I thought that was answered on the wattage google group within the last week or so...and wasn't the "general guideline" that if the break is long enough to take a power nap, then they should be separate?

Seriously, my experience is the same as umd's...if you're curious what the effect is for your own files, just break them into two and see what difference it makes and if you feel it's "significant" or not...
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Old 02-03-09, 07:04 PM   #214
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The issue is not whether zeros are counted, but the non-additive nature of TSS. If you split a ride into two rides, calculate TSS for each ride and add the two TSS scores together, you generally get a lower number than if you calculate TSS over the entire ride. The greater the difference between the IF's of the two halves, the greater the difference will be between the sum of the halves and the whole.

For example, I generally have to end my warmup about 20 minutes before the start of a race. The IF of the warmup will be much lower than the IF of the race, so it makes a large difference in this case. So, is this one workout or two? What if there was only 10 minutes between? How about 1 hour? etc.
I think you know the answer to that one already, don't you?

If you don't think there are any "residual" effects of your warmup on the race you do...why they heck did you do the warmup in the first place?
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Old 02-03-09, 07:35 PM   #215
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I understand that, I just haven't seen significant differences either way. I tried splitting off the after-coffee-shop-ride-home portion of the weekend rides and it didn't make more than a few TSS points difference. THat said, I generally start a new file except for the aforementioned coffee stops.
Ok, good to know, thanks.
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Old 02-03-09, 07:40 PM   #216
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I think you know the answer to that one already, don't you?

If you don't think there are any "residual" effects of your warmup on the race you do...why they heck did you do the warmup in the first place?
Ok, so the consensus is basically that is doesn't matter and i shouldn't worry about it. Sounds good to me.

As to why i do the warmup, i have no idea. Knowing nothing about physiology, i would have to say because of a mix of routine, superstition, mythology, and maybe a hope that it might help. Kind of like why a pitcher spits before every pitch.
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Old 02-04-09, 07:51 AM   #217
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Tanhalt mentioned the wattage forum--huge thread over there that will make you not want to ever bother with it again.

Ok. I know what Pw:HR is, anybody know what Pa:HR is? What does it measure?
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Old 02-04-09, 08:02 AM   #218
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Tanhalt mentioned the wattage forum--huge thread over there that will make you not want to ever bother with it again.

Ok. I know what Pw:HR is, anybody know what Pa:HR is? What does it measure?
I believe it is pace (ie speed) coupled with hr

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Old 02-04-09, 08:03 AM   #219
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Cool. I guess that is a running () thing and useless for us.
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Old 02-08-09, 02:40 PM   #220
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I have a question directed more towards the SRM users.

Today on my ride, I zeroed at the start of the ride, then about halfway through my ride, when I rezero'ed the offset was up about 20-25.

Does this mean that all my data was reading low at the point when the offset drifted up?

I did a 'test' and set the offset while I was pedaling hard, and everything registered in the low teens when I was gunning it after doing it. So I guess it was reading low while the offset drifted up, no?
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Old 02-08-09, 04:00 PM   #221
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I have a question directed more towards the SRM users.

Today on my ride, I zeroed at the start of the ride, then about halfway through my ride, when I rezero'ed the offset was up about 20-25.

Does this mean that all my data was reading low at the point when the offset drifted up?

I did a 'test' and set the offset while I was pedaling hard, and everything registered in the low teens when I was gunning it after doing it. So I guess it was reading low while the offset drifted up, no?
i think you answered your own question
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Old 02-08-09, 04:12 PM   #222
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i think you answered your own question
Just wanted to make sure
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Old 02-08-09, 04:14 PM   #223
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I thought SRM were supposed to be accurate. Are you saying that through the course of a ride your power readings drifted by 25 Watts? That's crazy.
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Old 02-08-09, 04:24 PM   #224
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I thought SRM were supposed to be accurate. Are you saying that through the course of a ride your power readings drifted by 25 Watts? That's crazy.
the torque counter shifted by 25hz. this doesn't correlate to 25 watts for the most part, although the error is related to the angular velocity.
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Old 02-08-09, 04:29 PM   #225
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I thought SRM were supposed to be accurate. Are you saying that through the course of a ride your power readings drifted by 25 Watts? That's crazy.
Temperature changes etc. Accuracy and calibration don't go hand in hand

I normally rezero while spinning backwards or holding the crankarms steady, normally while descending. I do it like once every 30-60 mins depending on temp changes. If the temp doesn't change more than a few degrees, I don't bother.
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