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  1. #2326
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kudude View Post
    a higher FTP equates to a _lower_ sts for the same rides......I don't understand what you mean
    look better as in "look lower" so I have a plecebo of thinking I'm fresher than I really should be. one less excuse for my brain to be telling me "stop, of course you're tired, your stress levels are too high".


    now they don't look high enough, so I should try harder.

    dumb mental game in my head, that's all.

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  2. #2327
    meow bostongarden's Avatar
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    Warning: after reading through this post before clicking to post, I recognize that this is at least a touch stream of consciousness.

    Went out to do a 3' ftp test, knowing deep down I would fail at the attempt. But, I also like doing the test because the intensity teaches my legs good stuff; so, for a race coming up, I knew I could benefit (and wanted the benefit). So, sure enough, I called off the jam at 86 seconds. Now, 3 days ago, I just switched shoes and am using a slightly different cleat position. After the ride, I was questioning the shoes/cleats/new position a bit.

    But -- and to me this is one of, perhaps, the, beauty of having a power meter and past data -- I compared today's data to a successful ftp test done on May 22. I'm not fully sure how to interpret or what to make of the comparison yet. But, it suggests that, perhaps, I should not be questioning the new shoes and cleat position. Again, I am not sure fully how to interpret, but, the data suggest that my doubts could be misplaced.

    .....................................................May 22.........................................July 23/today
    The jump sequence in watts......704, 865, 917, 922, 898, 709...............867, 936, 959, 1045, 1013, 996
    The first 23 seconds.................509ap, 100rpm, 29.05mph...................653ap, 110rpm, 30.03mph
    The first 86 seconds.................381ap, 94rpm, 27.8mph......................449ap, 99rpm, 27.6mph

    Some thoughts (and again, not sure how to fully interpret today's results -- but, again, having the data from the past and today allows me to make considerations and could indeed change my thoughts about my conditioning and workout plans, and, of course, which shoes to wear and where to place my cleats!):

    I will say that I decided to quit today when I saw the watts dropping to a point that was approaching where the ftp was estimated for May 22 -- psychologically I thought something like "bag it, not going to beat it or, perhaps be near it." (And, I would not say that in retrospect that I should have tried to hang on as I had quit psychologically -- I did not have the benefit of comparing the data at that moment, which, indeed, could have changed my decision to push onward. However, with what I've learned from comparing the data today, I now know to not quit in the future were I in a like situation.)

    And, while the power comparisons are highly favorable for today's effort, I am concerned about the mean mph being slightly lower today for the total 86" as, after all, isn't that the true ultimate output that one wants to maximize? I acknowledge that comparing mph from one day to another can be tricky; certainly, as I do not have any weather related measures, such as wind. However, my mean mph was greater today over the first 23 seconds, so, if there were any weather conditions not in favor today relative to May 22, we can assume they existed during both the first 23" and the total 86".

    However -- sorry, but, I am letting my mind go a bit as I type here -- I can see the drop in today's data for mph (after the 23" mark and before the 86" mark) that explains today's lower mean mph for (the total) 86". The difference was not due to slowing at the end!!! (Were it at the end, that would concern me the most.) For some reason, my mph were lower today from the 26" mark to the 66" mark, and down by over 2mph on average from seconds 45-58. But, today, the mean mph during the last 20 seconds was HIGHER (26.78mph today versus 26.36mph on May 22).

    I am not sure I have a bottom line on this story yet. But, I'm thinking:
    a) I might be in better shape today than on May 22,
    b) if I am in worse shape than on May 22, it may not be as much as I was thinking before I compared these data,
    c) perhaps I should keep using these shoes and keep, at least for the moment, the new cleat setup,
    d) when you think you are out of gas, or might be deep in the pain cave, ignore it, don't think, and push on dude, push on.
    Last edited by bostongarden; 07-23-10 at 08:39 PM.

  3. #2328
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    what's different with the cleats/shoes?
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  4. #2329
    meow bostongarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    what's different with the cleats/shoes?
    Shoes:
    I switched from my 1991 (or so) Time Racing shoes to new Sidi ergo 2 carbon lite shoes.

    Cleat position:
    My answer for this is not perfectly precise. I will do some measurement/assessment today as I am going to make some adjustment decisions. But, from what I can perceive visually and with feel, I moved the cleats back (and, hence my feet forward) about 5-8mm. Before, I might have been a bit behind the spindle; now, I believe that I am over it. Also, I had a wedge in the right cleat with the Time shoes (not using it with new shoes); and I switched to the cleat option with the smaller q-factor from a setup on the Times where I used a greater/wider q-factor.

    Thoughts, insights?


    EDIT EDIT:

    Did a more precise measurement of cleat placement with respect to the balls of my feet -- granted, still some error, I'm sure.

    To the best that I could, I estimated that the Time/previous shoes setup put the balls of my feet right over the spindle and the Sidi/new shoes setup put me about 6mm ahead of that (so, a tad ahead of the center of the spindle -- well, actually, the center mark in the cleat, although, I believe that corresponds to the center of the spindle).

    My technique for assessing cleat placement with respect to center of spindle, which was perhaps old school and unscientific, was to:
    1) cut strips of paper, placing the straight edge along the "center marks" of the cleat and then (duct) taping them to the cleat;
    2) put on the shoe, feel for the bone protrusion along the inside of the foot just behind the big toe and ahead of the arch;
    3) look and try to drop down a straight edge/line that I can compare to the paper (which, in theory, that paper extends from the "center marks" of the cleat).
    4) If my drop down line meets the straight edge, then cleat placement has me right over the spindle; if the drop down line is ahead of the straight edge (i.e., closer to the front of my foot), then the cleat placement has me ahead of the spindle; if the drop down line is behind the straight edge, then the cleat placement has me behind the spindle.

    I was careful, but, I grant that there can be some decent measurement error with this process.
    Last edited by bostongarden; 07-24-10 at 11:41 AM.

  5. #2330
    Roadie brian416's Avatar
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    I don't see how doing a 3 minute interval can help you determine FTP, if you're a person with a higher 5' power, you're going to way overestimate your FTP, if you have a lower 5' power, you'll end up underestimating your FTP. Is there a reason you don't do at least a 20min test?

    You should completely ignore speed, speed doesn't matter at all, only power does. When I do threshold intervals, my speed can vary anywhere from 20-27mph depending on wind, temp, if I end up riding in the smooth tire tracks or rougher section on the edge of the road, there are just to many variables unless you're on a indoor velodrome.

  6. #2331
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bostongarden View Post
    However, with what I've learned from comparing the data today, I now know to not quit in the future were I in a like situation.)
    Wow, that was a good improvement to that point. Always remember: it never hurts any less, you just go faster. You're going to feel like crap 1.5 minutes into that crazy-assed test, no matter how powerful you are. Also remember that 2:00 mark, where the pain just goes lower from there, even at 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian416 View Post
    I don't see how doing a 3 minute interval can help you determine FTP, if you're a person with a higher 5' power, you're going to way overestimate your FTP, if you have a lower 5' power, you'll end up underestimating your FTP. Is there a reason you don't do at least a 20min test?

    You should completely ignore speed, speed doesn't matter at all, only power does. When I do threshold intervals, my speed can vary anywhere from 20-27mph depending on wind, temp, if I end up riding in the smooth tire tracks or rougher section on the edge of the road, there are just to many variables unless you're on a indoor velodrome.
    This was not a 3' interval. This is a 3' all-out critical power test. Every. Single. Pedal. Stroke. is at 100%. For three minutes. It's horrible. Terrible.

    When you're done, the power file will show that sometime between 2:00 and 2:30, your power stops dropping and levels off. Since you've completely blown out any anaerobic work capacity, all that is left is aerobic power. You should be able to look at the final 15 seconds average and see what your critical power is.

    The benefit is that it's not much more training stress than a couple 1' intervals. The next day, you can train normally. Even 15' later, you can probably get back to a tempo workout. This is not an invasive test from a training-plan perspective.

    However, it feels invasive, in that it's some of the worst pain you'll ever inflict on yourself.

  7. #2332
    meow bostongarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian416 View Post
    I don't see how doing a 3 minute interval can help you determine FTP, if you're a person with a higher 5' power, you're going to way overestimate your FTP, if you have a lower 5' power, you'll end up underestimating your FTP. Is there a reason you don't do at least a 20min test?

    You should completely ignore speed, speed doesn't matter at all, only power does. When I do threshold intervals, my speed can vary anywhere from 20-27mph depending on wind, temp, if I end up riding in the smooth tire tracks or rougher section on the edge of the road, there are just to many variables unless you're on a indoor velodrome.
    I agree in principle with respect to speed, as, I did indicate that weather conditions could indeed be different and that I did not have any measures of relevant weather items (e.g., wind). However, that being said, I did notice differences in mph which were not dominant with respect to one of the dates, which is why I felt mph might provide some usefulness in the comparison. Again, I fully agree with you on the weather and other conditions. Aside from weather, I did assume all other conditions were the same as I use the same stretch of road -- well, technically, I compared neither the most immediate workouts preceding either test nor my effort/warmup as I rode to do the the test as I am not that pro

  8. #2333
    meow bostongarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Wow, that was a good improvement to that point. Always remember: it never hurts any less, you just go faster. You're going to feel like crap 1.5 minutes into that crazy-assed test, no matter how powerful you are. Also remember that 2:00 mark, where the pain just goes lower from there, even at 100%.

    ----
    This was not a 3' interval. This is a 3' all-out critical power test. Every. Single. Pedal. Stroke. is at 100%. For three minutes. It's horrible. Terrible.

    When you're done, the power file will show that sometime between 2:00 and 2:30, your power stops dropping and levels off. Since you've completely blown out any anaerobic work capacity, all that is left is aerobic power. You should be able to look at the final 15 seconds average and see what your critical power is.

    The benefit is that it's not much more training stress than a couple 1' intervals. The next day, you can train normally. Even 15' later, you can probably get back to a tempo workout. This is not an invasive test from a training-plan perspective.

    However, it feels invasive, in that it's some of the worst pain you'll ever inflict on yourself.
    As Arnold said, I'll be back. Thanks for those reminders!!! I too was shocked by the change in power versus two months ago. What's weird is that I was starting to feel kind of strong after the test on May 22 and felt very strong on May 31, the day I crashed in a race; but, at present, I do not feel strong (although, the objective data suggest, perhaps, otherwise). As we know, the power meter does not lie. Maybe I don't feel great because I am adjusting to new shoes and a new slightly different cleat position.

    Indeed, this test hurts. Every turn of the crank is all out. And, another great thing about it is that, at least for me, it serves as a good interval. It really "stretches" me out, propels me and helps me get faster and stronger.

  9. #2334
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    So today I was messing around on my computer and decided to see where I ranked on the famous "e-wang" chart. Even though I haven't done any formal testing, I've done a couple of hard group rides/races with my pm so I figured it would be interesting to see where I fell. (I know that the chart is not really centered in reality, except for the high and low values, but w/e)

    My 13.71w/kg 5s power was pretty bad, but far better than my 5.99w/kg 1minute power. The big surprise (for me) was my 5 minute power, which ended up being 4.39w/kg and at the top end of the cat 4 range and the lower end of the cat 3 range. I'm not sure if you're supposed to use an actual 60minute test for the "ft" column or just what it comes out from a 20minute test, but using my best 20minute power I ended up with 3.2w/kg.

    As I look back on how I've ridden since getting into racing, the higher 5 minute power seems to make sense. Most of the "climbs" around here are in the 3-5 minute range and I always try to take pulls / attacks in group rides on these "climbs" because they are one place where I have a slight advantage over the guys I ride with.

    So, as I look towards next year, it seems like I should try to focus and improve my 1 minute and my ftp. My 1 minute power is really laughable and I suspect that improving it would allow me to hang better with attacks. But, I also want to work on 5 minute power so that I can better capitalize on my relative strength in races and the like.

    Anybody have any comments on where I should focus my training? Once I get my last race of the season done in a few weeks, I look forward to doing some real tests (starting with an ftp test) to see where my real max numbers end up.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  10. #2335
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    you won't listen anyway.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  11. #2336
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    Use 95% of 20 min power to estimate FTP.

  12. #2337
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    he hasn't done a real 20 minute test. I think he's just looking at the bins.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  13. #2338
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    he hasn't done a real 20 minute test. I think he's just looking at the bins.
    bins? I'm just looking at my max power numbers for the critical power plot in GC. These are from group rides and races (edit: as well as solo training). No, I haven't done a real ftp test, but I plan to as soon as possible.
    Last edited by mike868y; 07-25-10 at 08:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  14. #2339
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
    Anybody have any comments on where I should focus my training?
    Yeah. Train to a race type/strategy that you think you have the best chance of doing well at, or to improve the things that limited you from doing well, not to the EWang, which has nothing to do with race success or failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    he hasn't done a real 20 minute test....
    It's your damn fault. You've scared the poor kid to death.
    Quote Originally Posted by CastIron View Post
    Damn.

  16. #2341
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Yeah. Train to a race type/strategy that you think you have the best chance of doing well at, or to improve the things that limited you from doing well, not to the EWang, which has nothing to do with race success or failure.
    Thanks. At this point, I still feel like my ftp is my limiter since lately I seem to have a hard time just staying in races until the finish.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  17. #2342
    coffee-stained punk hammy56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
    Thanks. At this point, I still feel like my ftp is my limiter since lately I seem to have a hard time just staying in races until the finish.
    do you know what your ftp is? do you realize that without knowing your ftp, all the numbers are basically meaningless? you dont have an extra 20 min to do a test? dont make me give you a ****in facepalm.

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    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammy56 View Post
    do you know what your ftp is? do you realize that without knowing your ftp, all the numbers are basically meaningless? you dont have an extra 20 min to do a test? dont make me give you a ****in facepalm.
    I'm going to do the test as soon as I can, which will probably be this friday. Right now I'm taking a few days to rest and hopefully let my legs (and mind) feel better after my total fail of a race yesterday. If I feel up to it, I'll do the test on Tuesday, but if I don't feel 100% yet, I'm going to do a hard group ride wednesday and then the test on Friday.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  19. #2344
    Senior Member tallmantim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
    So today I was messing around on my computer and decided to see where I ranked on the famous "e-wang" chart. Even though I haven't done any formal testing, I've done a couple of hard group rides/races with my pm so I figured it would be interesting to see where I fell. (I know that the chart is not really centered in reality, except for the high and low values, but w/e)

    My 13.71w/kg 5s power was pretty bad, but far better than my 5.99w/kg 1minute power. The big surprise (for me) was my 5 minute power, which ended up being 4.39w/kg and at the top end of the cat 4 range and the lower end of the cat 3 range. I'm not sure if you're supposed to use an actual 60minute test for the "ft" column or just what it comes out from a 20minute test, but using my best 20minute power I ended up with 3.2w/kg.

    As I look back on how I've ridden since getting into racing, the higher 5 minute power seems to make sense. Most of the "climbs" around here are in the 3-5 minute range and I always try to take pulls / attacks in group rides on these "climbs" because they are one place where I have a slight advantage over the guys I ride with.

    So, as I look towards next year, it seems like I should try to focus and improve my 1 minute and my ftp. My 1 minute power is really laughable and I suspect that improving it would allow me to hang better with attacks. But, I also want to work on 5 minute power so that I can better capitalize on my relative strength in races and the like.

    Anybody have any comments on where I should focus my training? Once I get my last race of the season done in a few weeks, I look forward to doing some real tests (starting with an ftp test) to see where my real max numbers end up.
    Other people may be different, but what I see from ride data is usually a decent amount lower than what you could do. For example, from basic ride data from rides and races my 1' power shows up in Training Peaks at a highest recorded 648W - whereas my peak effort on an indoor training machine (Wattbike) is 741W. On that effort (a 3km simulated TT), I was warmed up and did not have to ride anywhere afterwards - so I could put it all down on the pedals. When I group rides, I'll put in a decent effort on the small rises (hence 1' power), but will keep something in reserve to continue the ride and in consideration of those that I'm riding with.

    Similarly, the effort you can pump out for 20' will be different from what you see on a group ride or race - unless you are hammering hard TTing off the front when fresh. Top 20' effort in WKO is 364 for me - which would put FTP at 345 - 10W less than calculated FTP, but in line I guess.

  20. #2345
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammy56 View Post
    do you know what your ftp is? do you realize that without knowing your ftp, all the numbers are basically meaningless? you dont have an extra 20 min to do a test? dont make me give you a ****in facepalm.
    spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
    I'm going to do the test as soon as I can, which will probably be this friday. Right now I'm taking a few days to rest and hopefully let my legs (and mind) feel better after my total fail of a race yesterday. If I feel up to it, I'll do the test on Tuesday, but if I don't feel 100% yet, I'm going to do a hard group ride wednesday and then the test on Friday.
    yet you still have your excuses lined up.

    stoping making BF so mad and just do the test. you cant talk about numbers and values based off your FTP if you have not tested your FTP. if you do not know your FTP it all means nothing.

    or so i have been told. later.

  21. #2346
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aham23 View Post
    spot on.



    yet you still have your excuses lined up.

    stoping making BF so mad and just do the test. you cant talk about numbers and values based off your FTP if you have not tested your FTP. if you do not know your FTP it all means nothing.

    or so i have been told. later.
    I'm going to do the stupid test as soon as I can!
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  22. #2347
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
    I'm going to do the stupid test as soon as I can!
    Dude - I'd bet you've spent well over 60 minute on bf.net AFTER receiving initial advice to do an immediate FTP test...that's plenty of time for a good warm-up, test, and cool down. Many of us are disappointed in our humbling numbers after our first test, but knowing the FTP lets us create the right target zones for intervals of varying intensity and length. Not knowing this data, you're just guessing with a very, very, very expensive bike computer.

    I always thought my limiter was my FTP...I would be tired by the end of the race such that I didn't have the juice for the last lap and final sprint. That is, until I did my FTP test...based on this and follow-up test, my strength IS my FTP (according to e-wang chart I have Cat 2 FTP), it is my 1 minute and 15s power that was on the higher end of the category BELOW me (i.e., Cat 5)!! Guess how much that changed the nature and structure of my training!!

    Good luck.
    Last edited by teetopkram; 07-26-10 at 05:29 AM.

  23. #2348
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    you guys are wasting your breath.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

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    going roundy round wanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CastIron View Post
    Damn.

  25. #2350
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    I was honestly going to do it after work today, but I got stuck thee a little longer than normal and now I have an orthodontist appointment. But, I should be able to fit it in between the orthodontists and the team meeting tonight.

    And yes, I am scared. Mostly just scared that I am going to end up with some pitiful number like 175w.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

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