plantrob

185 bpm would be way higher than I could average for 20 minutes. I'm about the same age. I know that heart rates vary considerably person to person, but with such a large difference between the two data sets, I would at least consider the possibility that the HRM is acting up. I know mine sometimes does in windy, mild dry late-winter weather conditions.

Abu Jack

Thanks for all the replies. I would say that am definitely less trained over the last 3 months or so although I wouldn't say untrained. I'll track things closer to see what the trends are over next couple months and focus on the power instead of the HR.

Thanks Again

AJ

ruindd

Does anyone have a link for understanding how to use the Performance Manager tab in GC?

GirlAnachronism

Here you go: https://bugs.goldencheetah.org/projec...nager_%28PM%29

ruindd

Perfect, just what I needed. Thanks!

climber7

question about normalized power...

i did some VO2max intervals today. 6x5.5 minutes, 5 minutes rest. i was messing around with the CP curve in goldencheetah afterward and realized it could display the curve as normalized power instead of actual. i took a look and noticed that during today's intervals, my peak normalized power for 1 hour was actually about 6 watts higher than my last-tested FTP. granted, that test was almost 8 weeks ago; i'm definitely in better shape and it's time for a re-test. i think FTP has probably gone up 10-20 watts since then. but still, it got me thinking, because riding at that power for an hour would still be pretty damn hard.

how accurate/useful do you guys think NP really is? when do you use it and when do you ignore it?

bored117 

You said damn hard not impossible. There we go

climber7

haha, ok...i mean, i get that riding anywhere near FTP for an hour will be very difficult. i guess what i'm sort of asking is this: given that allen and coggan say you can estimate FTP with your best 1-hour NP, would 60 minutes of VO2 max intervals (including rest) work for that purpose, or is the variability index too high?

i'm not planning on using this number as my FTP. just curious.

Jsiegs

I'd use it for no more than you have - an indication that it is time to retest, but not useful as a substitue for a real test. It all depends how your body is currently trained. If you've been doing tons of V02 stuff, you're highly trained and raised your threshold there, and your hour power will have improved, but not by as much as the Vo2 workout may indicate. OTOH, if you've been doing lots of FTP intervals, then did the V02 workout, your less adapted at the VO2 stuff and your FTP is probably a little higher than the V02 workout would indicate. The same sort of caveat goes with any test to determine FTP that does not include an hour long test.


I'd also ask if you did that ride outside, did you stop at all during that hour? Was that stopped time used to calculate AP/NP? If it was not included, it artificially inflates AP/NP compared to what your body actually did and the number is less useful. If it was or if you never stopped the time, then I'd go with my first statement.

Somewhat off topic - I don't work with a coach, but I've frequently talked to them online and have a good friend who is a very good coach and uses power and from what I've gathered VO2 intervals should be done with much less than equal rest compared to work. E.g. I've used 6x4 min @ 20MP with 45 sec rest. Is that correct?

ETA: that off topic remark was intended to be a question, not a statement (i.e. asking if that was correct, which it doesn't seem it is).

shovelhd

To me, NP is most useful for keeping me in the targeted power range during tempo or FTP workouts than for measurement of anything specific. I wouldn't use NP to base training on.

Regarding VO2Max workouts with super short rest, I don't do them that way.

Jsiegs

Do you do them at ~20MP? What's you protocol for VO2max workouts if you don't mind me asking?

aham23

fully agree with this. especially when outside where it can be a bit more difficult to maintain a wattage over longer periods to do all the variables. later.

RChung

https://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Ar...daptations.pdf

shovelhd

Yeah, I do them at that level. I usually rest between 50%-100% of the interval.

But Chung is here. He is the expert, not me. I'm nowhere near as serious about numbers as he is.

Jsiegs

Awesome, thanks for the reference. i do have a follow up though - how do you determine your VO2max power? I have heard it's roughly your 5 MP (which is also suggested by the article in that it says intervals at 100% vo2max should be 3-5 min long). Is that a good estimate or is there another way to determine?

AzTallRider

Metabolic testing is one way to really nail it down.

RChung

To really know for sure you need to do a graded exercise metabolic test, as AzTallRider said. However, in a deep sense knowing your exact VO2Max power isn't that important and most riders don't get a chance to go into the lab to measure it. So a typical estimator is the mean maximal power at a duration around 5 minutes. Three minutes would be too short, I think, and 8 minutes might be too long. Five or six minutes will be about right. Depending on your particular fitness situation, this will probably be somewhere in the range of 105% to 120% of your FTP.

echappist

RChumg, what's your take on doing a pursuit like effort and taking avg power of last 3min for P@VO2max, assuming the rider drains anaerobic capacity with standing start and first 60s?

RChung

Most serious pursuit efforts will be above VO2Max power. It'll put you in the right ballpark but I think it'll be a tad high. As I said, knowing your exact VO2Max power isn't *that* critical -- you're trying to find a level you can maintain for interval training meeting the guidelines given above. So from a functional point of view, pick a reasonable level and do the interval workout. If you couldn't complete the workout, drop the level a bit; if you finished with some gas in the tank, raise it a bit. It might take you a couple of workouts to hone in on the right level but that's okay.

asgelle

I'm not sure what VO2max power even means. To start with I'd guess it should be something like minimal VO2max power, i.e., the minimum power that will ellicit VO2max since one can continue to generate power above this purely by anaerobic metabolism. But then it's also possible to generate powers above this minimal VO2max power level without reaching VO2max if the durations are short enough. Then to add confusion, even in lab testing, VO2max power is somewhat protocol dependent with different ramp rates giving different powers in some circumstances.

All in all it seems to me that VO2max power is like aerobic threshold; a useful concept to guide training but not something that can or should be precisely defined.

RChung

Yeah, I agree with this. VO2Max (in ml/kg/min) isn't really as closely tied to performance as we might think, so it's mostly useful as a way to think about the contribution and training of different energy systems.

plantrob

Since a common way of estimating FTP is 95% of 20-min mean maximal power, that would translate to 100-114% of 20MP. My composite power curve has bulges at 5 minutes (because several hills I like to hit as hard as possible take that long to climb) and 20 minutes (because I've tested there a couple times). The ratio between the two is 1.18. Since that's a little beyond the high end of the range quoted above, I guess that suggests I'm not as much of a stayer as I believed I was?

RChung

Well, I agree that's a common way of estimating FTP -- but it's not a particularly good one. Plus, you can only multiply numbers like that to get an overall relationship between VO2Max and 20MP if the proportions are independent, and they probably aren't: the riders whose FTP is close to 95% of their 20MP aren't the same ones whose VO2Max is 105% of FTP.

plantrob

Agreed - that's why I didn't comment on the low end (100%) of that calculated range. But I'm still curious if my 5MP/20MP ratio tells me my strength is more in mid-range than in long-range power. There's little doubt that my short-range (5s) power stinks

echappist

that what the ewang chart is good for. If you have exhausted your current capability to generate more oxidative enzymes in your muscles, your FTP will be at the same level as or above that for 5'. Only way to raise FTP then is to increase the headroom for oxygen carrying capacity, which is what VO2max training attempts to do.

Otherwise the 5' will be higher than that for FTP, but this ratio can be changed (speaking from personal experience). I once thought i was good for the short punchy climbs (ok 1m, cat-2 range for 5m, ok FTP), but through training this year my FTP is now in the cat-2 range.

As a cat-2 friend told me: everyone thinks they are good at certain things until they hit cat-2, and then everyone restart as all-rounders.