Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-22-08, 01:24 PM   #1
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Bikes:
Posts: 20,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Just started training with Power? Post your questions/comments here!

So recently, the power noobs (myself included) have taken over the training status thread. I feel a little bad about doing that, since it buries peoples race/training questions and thoughts. I decided to start this thread so long time power users (aka those who know what they're doing) can help out the noobs on a separate thread.

Lets see how it goes

For those interested in Sweet Spot Training (SST): http://www.fascatcoaching.com/archive/sst.html

Other resources:

Joe Friel's Blog: http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/

TrainingPeaks 411: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

Last edited by ridethecliche; 11-23-08 at 07:52 AM.
ridethecliche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-08, 01:44 PM   #2
kudude
slow up hills
 
kudude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Posts: 4,931
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just got a used SRM and would like to contribute to this thread. Can someone post the e-wang chart? as close as possible to the beginning of the thread (ridethecliche if you could edit your post....)

Also, suggestions for getting a baseline after doing a bit of JRA?
kudude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-08, 01:46 PM   #3
bdcheung
Carpe Diem
 
bdcheung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
Bikes: 2007 CAAD9; 2014 CAADX; PedalForce CG1
Posts: 13,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Gladly.

__________________
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
bdcheung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 07:13 AM   #4
Snuffleupagus
Aut Vincere Aut Mori
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes: Irish Cycles Tir na Nog, Jack Kane Team Racing, Fuji Aloha 1.0, GT Karakoram, Motobecane Fly Team
Posts: 4,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kudude View Post
I just got a used SRM and would like to contribute to this thread. Can someone post the e-wang chart? as close as possible to the beginning of the thread (ridethecliche if you could edit your post....)

Also, suggestions for getting a baseline after doing a bit of JRA?
Coggan's Seven Deadly Sins:
http://www.twowheelblogs.com/2-old-2...hreshold-power

Quote:
How to determine your Functional Threshold Power (roughly in order of increasing certainty):

1. from inspection of a ride file.
2. from power distribution profile from multiple rides.
3. from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it is done).
4. based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race.
5. using critical power testing and analysis.
6. from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training.
7. from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of performance is performance itself).

Note the key words "hard", "routinely", and "average" in methods 4, 6, and 7...
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 07:14 AM   #5
Snuffleupagus
Aut Vincere Aut Mori
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes: Irish Cycles Tir na Nog, Jack Kane Team Racing, Fuji Aloha 1.0, GT Karakoram, Motobecane Fly Team
Posts: 4,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Monod critical power sheet:
http://teamhealthfx.com/files/7/general/entry1758.aspx
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 07:39 AM   #6
Flatballer
No matches
 
Flatballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Bikes: two wheeled ones
Posts: 10,697
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
How is LT related to FTP? My coach gave us our LT numbers from the power test last week, but no FTP numbers.

Is it not possible to get FTP from a 3 mile TT? We're doing more testing later, maybe we'll get FTP then.
Flatballer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 07:53 AM   #7
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Bikes:
Posts: 20,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
FTP always occurs at just about LTHR, so you should go by HR in this case and if you don't have a power meter you should treat LTHR as your FTP and do intervals using a % of that.

Your FTP will change over your training period, but your LTHR shouldn't really change so this is a good estimate.
ridethecliche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 08:09 AM   #8
sgrundy
I am the cheese
 
sgrundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cycling Purgatory (Brooklyn, NY)
Bikes:
Posts: 236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
How is LT related to FTP? My coach gave us our LT numbers from the power test last week, but no FTP numbers.

Is it not possible to get FTP from a 3 mile TT? We're doing more testing later, maybe we'll get FTP then.
Lactate Threshold, as measured in a lab, is usually about 15% lower than FT. That being said, I wouldn't try to extrapolate anything from the numbers your coach gave you.

About the 3 Mile TT, no it's not really possible to get a close estimate of FTP that way. Your coach is using it as a method of setting training zones and it's probably fine for that, but if you want to estimate your FTP accurately you need to either 1. do a 60 min test or 2. do multiple shorter tests and use the monod spreadsheet. The problem with a 3mile TT is that its so short, anaerobic capacity will have a big effect on your time.
sgrundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 08:53 AM   #9
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT
Posts: 28,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
FTP always occurs at just about LTHR, so you should go by HR in this case and if you don't have a power meter you should treat LTHR as your FTP and do intervals using a % of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgrundy View Post
Lactate Threshold, as measured in a lab, is usually about 15% lower than FT. That being said, I wouldn't try to extrapolate anything from the numbers your coach gave you.
I had my AT/LT HR tested at about 165bpm (using O2/CO2 exchange) last March, and recently tested my FTP at 270W. I did SST this week at LTHR and 90% of FTP. I averaged 111% of LTHR and 104% of FTP for 17 minutes this week as part of my FTP (Monod method).
umd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 10:42 AM   #10
fuzzthebee
bzzzz
 
fuzzthebee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My advice to anyone just starting out is don't try to mix and match different training/testing schemas and protocols.
fuzzthebee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 10:49 AM   #11
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Bikes:
Posts: 20,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
My advice to anyone just starting out is don't try to mix and match different training/testing schemas and protocols.
Are you advising against people doing the 20 min interval method AND the MAP test AND the CP testing?

Why, just curious.

Too many different numbers leading to analysis paralysis?
ridethecliche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 11:32 AM   #12
MDcatV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 6,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
http://groups.google.com/group/wattage?hl=en

http://www.cyclingforums.com/f88-power-training.html

Last edited by MDcatV; 11-23-08 at 11:44 AM.
MDcatV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 01:12 PM   #13
ZeCanon
Writin' stuff
 
ZeCanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Boulder, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 3,784
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
So I just got a TT bike and want to start playing around with positions. I have an extra powertap cradle so I can swap it to the new bike. Is there a protocol somewhere out there for using the powertap to help optimize my position?
I'd love to do windtunnel stuff but it's waaaaay out of my price range. I may get to do some free time in the Fort Collins tunnel later this year because some of the guys there used to race for CSU and want us to win the nationals TTT, but that's not definite.

So, how do I use my power meter to help me optimize my TT position?
ZeCanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 02:02 PM   #14
Snuffleupagus
Aut Vincere Aut Mori
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes: Irish Cycles Tir na Nog, Jack Kane Team Racing, Fuji Aloha 1.0, GT Karakoram, Motobecane Fly Team
Posts: 4,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
So I just got a TT bike and want to start playing around with positions. I have an extra powertap cradle so I can swap it to the new bike. Is there a protocol somewhere out there for using the powertap to help optimize my position?
I'd love to do windtunnel stuff but it's waaaaay out of my price range. I may get to do some free time in the Fort Collins tunnel later this year because some of the guys there used to race for CSU and want us to win the nationals TTT, but that's not definite.

So, how do I use my power meter to help me optimize my TT position?
I believe our resident chiropractor/sandbagger/TT guru had some success doing timed straight mild downhills in different positions and with different gear.
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 02:28 PM   #15
fuzzthebee
bzzzz
 
fuzzthebee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
Are you advising against people doing the 20 min interval method AND the MAP test AND the CP testing?

Why, just curious.

Too many different numbers leading to analysis paralysis?
Something like that. Mostly I meant don't try to work with more that one training/testing system (HR, power, RPE, etc.) at a time. That's not to say don't wear a heart rate strap while using a power meter. Just stick to the power levels as opposed to trying to work within HR zones at the same time.

Also, I think people test more than necessary. I haven't done an official test (40 km TT in competition) since September 2007, but I'm confident that my FTP estimate is accurate. I like the #6 method for estimating FTP - "the power you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training".

Last edited by fuzzthebee; 11-23-08 at 02:31 PM.
fuzzthebee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 02:44 PM   #16
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT
Posts: 28,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
Also, I think people test more than necessary. I haven't done an official test (40 km TT in competition) since September 2007, but I'm confident that my FTP estimate is accurate. I like the #6 method for estimating FTP - "the power you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training".
I think I would agree with this... I got my PM at the end of August and just from riding it with I narrowed in pretty closely to what I thought my FTP should be and then finally confirmed it this week with a test. Now that I know I can get a pretty good handle on it without the test, I probably won't test very frequently...
umd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 03:48 PM   #17
sgrundy
I am the cheese
 
sgrundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cycling Purgatory (Brooklyn, NY)
Bikes:
Posts: 236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My advice:

Resist the temptation to chase power numbers. Training is about spending lots of time in your target zone, not banging out a personal best every day. Set targets and stick to them.
sgrundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 11:16 PM   #18
kudude
slow up hills
 
kudude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Posts: 4,931
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
anyone know how much SRM actually charges for its services? Specifically battery replacement and slope calibration. thanks
kudude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-08, 11:32 PM   #19
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Bikes:
Posts: 20,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Crank battery or powercontrol battery?

Call them. I paid $85 (shipping included both ways) to get new batteries for my power control. The power control batteries should hopefully last 2 years and the crank batteries will hopefully be good for about that long as well for my setup.

Link: http://srm.de/usa/Repair_Order_Forms.html
ridethecliche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-08, 04:57 AM   #20
C Law
Too Much Crazy
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NY
Bikes: A bunch
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
So recently, the power noobs (myself included) have taken over the training status thread. I feel a little bad about doing that, since it buries peoples race/training questions and thoughts.
<snip>

thanks for starting this thread. I picked up a used PT wheel and computer a month ago and had been lurking in that training thread since. As a Power noob (and an MTBer to boot!) I didn't really want to clog up that thread with stupid questions.

I am doing my testing this week as I just got over a cold. Since it is has been so cold up here I plan on testing on my trainer. I planned on doing the threshhold test as is outlined in Allen/Coggan book.

Any tips?
C Law is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-08, 07:05 AM   #21
ottsville
sidelined
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Bikes: 2005 Scattante R660, Kona Race Light SS conversion, 2007 Schwinn Fastback CX
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by C Law View Post
<snip>

(and an MTBer to boot!) I didn't really want to clog up that thread with stupid questions.
Roadies have been known to post the occasional stupid question too.


Quote:
Any tips?
I find that being on my trainer yields about 5% less in my power numbers for a given HR, so taking your indoor numbers to training outside might be a little off. It's probably close enough to get you started though. The first time testing may not yield the best results either, but as you test more, you'll get better at it.
ottsville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-08, 07:12 AM   #22
substructure
RustyTainte
 
substructure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 28012
Bikes: zilch
Posts: 12,343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Training Peak's averages are lower than the Power Tap averages ... Why for?
substructure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-08, 07:54 AM   #23
sgrundy
I am the cheese
 
sgrundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cycling Purgatory (Brooklyn, NY)
Bikes:
Posts: 236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Did you set the powertap to include zeroes?
sgrundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-08, 08:00 AM   #24
substructure
RustyTainte
 
substructure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 28012
Bikes: zilch
Posts: 12,343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgrundy View Post
Did you set the powertap to include zeroes?
I thought I was suppose to NOT include zeros? What's right?
substructure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-08, 08:39 AM   #25
Snuffleupagus
Aut Vincere Aut Mori
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes: Irish Cycles Tir na Nog, Jack Kane Team Racing, Fuji Aloha 1.0, GT Karakoram, Motobecane Fly Team
Posts: 4,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by substructure View Post
I thought I was suppose to NOT include zeros? What's right?
Include zeroes. For example, last year I did a crit @ 302w AP, 345w NP, and my PT (not including zeroes) reported something like 386w.

It's not an accurate reflection of work done over time, as if you're coasting with 0 power a lot and sprinting the rest of the time the readings will be really goofy.
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:53 PM.