Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 85
  1. #1
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Newton Ctr. MA
    My Bikes
    2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.
    Posts
    2,109
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Aero RR frames... worth it?

    I'm currently racing a CAAD7 and love the bike, but cant help but lust for an aero road racing frame/fork. I fell in love with the break away last season and am looking for all possible advantages in breaks.

    I own new HED Jet 60/90 wheels which are pretty damn aero, so I got wheels covered. I'm working on position, bodyweight, training, etc and all of the other variables that i can imagine.

    That said, I'd love a Felt AR4! or a new Ridley, Like RacerEx

    If money werent an issue, I'd have one now, but money is. Really.

    Any cheap ways to get onto a aero frame/fork that is actually faster (legitimately more aero) than the Cannondale?

    Are the new leader frames even worth considering? Is the Soloist team worth it?

    thanks,

    -eL
    Teammates-on-Podium O'meter: 0/n (n=total # of teammates I get to race with)
    Successful Breakaway O'meter: 0/total number of races entered

    Team/Training blogness:www.thresholdcycling.com

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,976
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca View Post
    Are the new leader frames even worth considering? Is the Soloist team worth it?
    Martin and Cobb* put the difference between a standard frame and a highly aerodynamic one (think Cervelo P3) as about 2 minutes for a 200-300W rider. That's where the rider is in the wind for over 50 minutes. Think about how long you're likely to be in front in a road race, how close you'll come to the drag of a P3, how important the likely time saved will be, and how much the money is worth to you. Then decide.

    *http://www.amazon.com/High-Performan...8439766&sr=8-1

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    litespeed, look, c-dale
    Posts
    148
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i think all this aero frame stuff is marketing hype ... make an aero carbon frame and you got a winner boys ... come on ... we all know that in the order of go-fast parts an aero frame makes little difference. i would go with a bike that fits and feels good and allows you to get the power down. hey, if you can do that on an aero bike ... cool ! but i wouldn't get an aero frameset thinking that it will drop 2 mns off a 40k tt.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    litespeed, look, c-dale
    Posts
    148
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    any road race i have been in usually has me wanting to stay out of the wind until the last km. again, if you are riding in the front of a race for that long you will get smoked in the end by some half-wit sprinter ... a hunter-killer

    oh yeah, same deal with a crit...

    for a tt, yep you have to be in the wind so aero is your friend.

  5. #5
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Newton Ctr. MA
    My Bikes
    2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.
    Posts
    2,109
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I DO plan on being in the front/wind for long periods of time... as long as possible. ... really
    Teammates-on-Podium O'meter: 0/n (n=total # of teammates I get to race with)
    Successful Breakaway O'meter: 0/total number of races entered

    Team/Training blogness:www.thresholdcycling.com

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,976
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by derrickhackman View Post
    ... but i wouldn't get an aero frameset thinking that it will drop 2 mns off a 40k tt.
    Jim Martin and John Cobb are renowned for their studies of cycling mechanics. They've published numerous articles in the peer reviewed literature. You say their results are wrong. What data do you have to back that up?

  7. #7
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    My Bikes
    Irish Cycles Tir na Nog, Jack Kane Team Racing, Fuji Aloha 1.0, GT Karakoram, Motobecane Fly Team
    Posts
    4,166
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca View Post
    I DO plan on being in the front/wind for long periods of time... as long as possible. ... really
    Word.

    There's no fresh sprinters to get beaten by when you're solo OTF

  8. #8
    Senior Member tanhalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    772
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Soloist Team. Hands down best "bang for the buck" bike in the business. At $1300 list for the frameset it's nearly a "disposable"...which may not be a bad idea for a race bike, especially if you do crits

  9. #9
    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oost Vlaanderen in mind, Cleveland in body
    My Bikes
    2010 Mitcholo w/ Sram Force/Red
    Posts
    8,851
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Felt AR4

    Get it.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    litespeed, look, c-dale
    Posts
    148
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    Jim Martin and John Cobb are renowned for their studies of cycling mechanics. They've published numerous articles in the peer reviewed literature. You say their results are wrong. What data do you have to back that up?

    the only data i have is years of experience racing bikes in New England and knowing what goes down. If you anything less than a Cat 3 then perhaps you can get off the front and solo attack your way home... but I don't think you need an aero frame to do that. If you are a Cat3 any solo attack will likely get chased down. It you are 1 or a 2 then I doubt you would even be asking the question about areo frames.

    at the end of the day if there is data to suggest some type of benefit then hey ... great! however I think the biggest limiting factor with an aero frame is the rider and the combination of rider and bike (wheels, shoes, cranks, shoulder width, helmet etc...) should be considered. again, this diligence is great for a TT where you know that being slippery helps... but i not convinced when you have a 50, 60, 70, 80...100 mile road race with hills.

    at the end of the day, get what you think will make you feel fast.... i suppose.

  11. #11
    Sensible shoes. CastIron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    St. Paul,MN
    My Bikes
    A few.
    Posts
    8,799
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    We've been chasing the Ghost of Lightness for years to the point of Ti bolts and $2/gram reductions. Other factors being equal (budget, fit, whatnot), why not make things more aero? It's the same, if not better, logic at play.

    The only question with these things is how far in the hole of diminishing returns do you wish to plunge?
    Mike
    Quote Originally Posted by cedricbosch View Post
    It looks silly when you have quotes from other forum members in your signature. Nobody on this forum is that funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by cedricbosch View Post
    Why am I in your signature.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    6,488
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    dude, according to your cat-o-meter, you're 28% of your journey toward becoming a cat 2, and I assume you've done this on your CAAD7. since you've demonstrated success on your CAAD7, and state money is an issue, explain to me like I'm a 5-year old why you want a different frameset?

    I'll bet there's a cat 3 or a hundred of 'em in NE that'll not let you ride away OTF for Ws very many times.

    keep whatcha got, it seems to be working for you

    now go practice some sprints so weakling vultures like me dont burn by you in the last 50M.

  13. #13
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,793
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Some guy in my race has an aero frame, lets say a soloist. I'm on my brick shaped 09 Giant SL. What do you suppose the chances of him just riding me off his wheel, based on superior aerodynamics, and soloing in for the win? Lets say said rider is Thurlow Rogers. Now reverse the bikes. What happens?

  14. #14
    Burning Matches. ElJamoquio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    My Bikes
    Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
    Posts
    9,663
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    Martin and Cobb* put the difference between a standard frame and a highly aerodynamic one (think Cervelo P3) as about 2 minutes for a 200-300W rider. That's where the rider is in the wind for over 50 minutes. Think about how long you're likely to be in front in a road race, how close you'll come to the drag of a P3, how important the likely time saved will be, and how much the money is worth to you. Then decide.

    *http://www.amazon.com/High-Performan...8439766&sr=8-1
    This seems like more of a time-trial bike study, asgelle - so I'd guess that the aero bike didn't have water bottles, and cages... any chance you know?
    Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

    Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


    "The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
    -Steve Prefontaine

  15. #15
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Driving the pace in the crosswind
    Posts
    2,599
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Flame away if you like, but an aero bike will make a difference, especially if focusing on breaks and attacking. I cannot say it is smart racing, but it is what I do and yes, I have been solo off the front of a 1/2/3 field for quite some time, so please stop with the category arguments. In a race, even in the pack, most energy expenses are for aerodynamics. Any time you are on the front, leading out, attacking, or pulling in a break is that much more important because of un-muddied air. Look, aero saves energy and watts. Who would not want more of that in the end of a race? I have a fair amount of experience of attacking and succeeding with 1k to go. Would I win without that aero frame? Maybe, but maybe not. Remember cancellara attacking in the TdF? The estimates said that if the frame had been that of his competitors, they would have overtaken him. I am going to the tunnel very soon. Road bike in tow. Keep believing the science is bad, and I will keep getting good results.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,976
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ElJamoquio View Post
    This seems like more of a time-trial bike study, asgelle - so I'd guess that the aero bike didn't have water bottles, and cages... any chance you know?
    It sounds like they were looking at the span from a standard road frame to an aggressive TT one. Based on the pictures, I'm guessing they used a Cervelo Rennaisance, Dual, and P3. The say they had matched seat heights, cranks and pedals horizontal, and no handlebars. From that and the included pictures, though they don't say it explicitly, I assume there were no water bottles or cages on any of the frames.

  17. #17
    Senior Member?
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    orbea onix, Cervelo SLC, Specialzed Allez, Cervelo P3 Alu
    Posts
    1,975
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    Keep believing the science is bad, and I will keep getting good results.
    People that refuse to believe science never cease to amaze. And by amaze, I mean attract my hatred, pity, and ridicule.

  18. #18
    Sensible shoes. CastIron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    St. Paul,MN
    My Bikes
    A few.
    Posts
    8,799
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by brianappleby View Post
    People that refuse to believe science never cease to amaze. And by amaze, I mean attract my hatred, pity, and ridicule.
    Heathen!

    We'll burn you at the stake while wearing our aero shoe covers! Do those things do a damn thing?
    Mike
    Quote Originally Posted by cedricbosch View Post
    It looks silly when you have quotes from other forum members in your signature. Nobody on this forum is that funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by cedricbosch View Post
    Why am I in your signature.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Coyote2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,393
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There's more aero bang-for-buck in tight shoe covers, super-snug jersey, even in a more aero helmet (data on last is scarce, though). Make sure you got all that covered before dropping big money on a supposedly-aero frameset.

  20. #20
    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Oost Vlaanderen in mind, Cleveland in body
    My Bikes
    2010 Mitcholo w/ Sram Force/Red
    Posts
    8,851
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by brianappleby View Post
    People that refuse to believe science never cease to amaze. And by amaze, I mean attract my hatred, pity, and ridicule.
    Like Mrs. "The Earth is 6,000 years old"?

  21. #21
    Senior Member Coyote2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,393
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    And dinosaurs were used as draft animals, pets even. Anyone who sez otherwise is a sucker.

  22. #22
    BikeIndustryGuy
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    Jim Martin and John Cobb are renowned for their studies of cycling mechanics. They've published numerous articles in the peer reviewed literature. You say their results are wrong. What data do you have to back that up?
    Their results are solid, but only if you respect the context. Blurting out the data on a P3 versus a standard road bike is pointless to the OP and anyone else. Why not suggest the recumbent data? Can you race a P3 in a crit?

    The question is: does an "aero" road frame offer an advantage over a standard road frame in the practical world of cat racing and crits? Quoting data in tunnels at 50km/hr for 50 minutes is fine, but that really only applies to maybe one hundred men in the world, in laminar air flow. Below that, the difference drops off to the third power-that's a steep drop.

    As for the sprint scenario, in the total package, the position of the rider makes almost all of the contribution to drag, but even given that, sprinters choose the stance that allows them best power for their biomechanics, some of the world's best even sprint on the hoods. There are plenty of examples of riders optimizing position in wind tunnels, only to go slower in a real TT. The rider is not a simple motor. Of course it's all science, but you cannot distill a racer down to one variable.

    The problem is not believing in science, the problem is understanding the correct application and interpretation of science.

    So while trying out your road racing position in a tunnel may make you faster, that's only going to happen if the optimal aero position coincides with your optimal biomechanics. For bang-for-the-buck, water bottle and number placement, jersey fit, helmet choice, wheel choice, bar drop, are all factors anyone can optimize before just buying an 'aero' frame. Wouldn't it be great is just buying a different frame made you faster? Sorry, but it's still an athletic sport.

    Then there's reality. Armstrong has unlimited funds at his disposal and is spending time in the tunnel for his TT bike and position, but for his stage races and climbs, he's not going to run anything particularly aero. In the past, he won some notable TTs by understanding aero better than most by taking off the dish wheels in cross wind stages.

    Of course, the placebo effect can be amazing on bikes. So whatever floats your boat. But applying naive theories in model situation without practical validation is what engineering scientists refer to as "waxing the pink mustang".

    As for science and arguments, I quote Lewis Black on evolution:

    FOSSILS!...FOSSILS!..FOSSILS!...I win!

    Last edited by BikeIndustryGuy; 12-05-08 at 10:32 AM.

  23. #23
    Burning Matches. ElJamoquio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    My Bikes
    Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
    Posts
    9,663
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeIndustryGuy View Post
    Can you race a P3 in a crit?
    Absolutely, nothing in the rulebook against a P3 frame; and asgelle has already mentioned that the aero was tested without bars, in order to keep things comparable.
    Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

    Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


    "The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
    -Steve Prefontaine

  24. #24
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    6,159
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by brianappleby View Post
    People that refuse to believe science never cease to amaze. And by amaze, I mean attract my hatred, pity, and ridicule.
    I'm actually more amused by people who take a small chunk of science that they don't understand and then apply that nugget of knowledge in the wrong situation while grabbing the 'scientific' high ground.

    For instance, see 'Laminar Flow' earlier in the thread.

  25. #25
    Senior Member?
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    orbea onix, Cervelo SLC, Specialzed Allez, Cervelo P3 Alu
    Posts
    1,975
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    agreed. Using big sciency words to validate one's opinion or misconception isn't cool.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •