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Thread: RaceDay vs WKO+

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    Double Secret Probation R900's Avatar
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    RaceDay vs WKO+

    I sat thru the webinar for RaceDay tonight and it made a lot of sense. I would like to try and better utilize my Powertap and I'm considering a software package. I think I understand the basics of RaceDay, so how does WKO+ compare?

    I'm a Mac user to that makes RaceDay more attractive, but could still make WKO+ work.

    I had a decent season this year, still improving, race maybe 3/4 times a year, monthly time trails, and fairly fast group rides.

    Thanks
    Time to Ride...

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    I think the majority of users on this board use WKO+.

    Honestly, I doubt that there's much difference in the actual information that's being provided to you. The presentation might be different, but I think that's where the line is.

    If you want to try something free, then you can try sporttracks for a bit while you explore the differences between the other two programs.

    In addition, you can do the WKO+ 2 week trial to see how you like the program now that you know how raceday works.
    Last edited by ridethecliche; 12-14-08 at 10:25 PM.
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    umd
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    Reading through their site, they claim that they are better for "predicting performance" and "planning tapers" than their competition (probably WKO?). Looks interesting, a lot of the graphs and information seem similar to WKO but they appear to claim a different metholdology (integral calculus vs. weighted averages) to arrive at their conclusions. It appears to offer a free trial, WKO offers a free trial, I would suggest trying both and seeing what you like better. Keep in mind there probably aren't many people using it, so if you post questions about your training using stats from it, we will probably look at you funny

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    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    I'll give it a try, maybe it'll work better on Linux/WINE than WKO+
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    As a MAC user who is a computer simpleton, I've done some research on this. I wouldnt pretend to understand the mathematics behind the programs. I've concluded that the concepts are similar enough to be a push, just that RaceDay uses different terminology than WKO+. Concepts similar to NP, CTL, TSB, etc. have different base mathematics, but essentially just called something else in RaceDay. This might make discussing the findings among a broad audience like here, over on cyclingforums, or the wattage board inconvenient.

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    parallels (for Mac) + a Win XX licensce will allow you to run WKO+

    see:
    http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/2006/0...llels-for.html

    full instructions

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    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    that almost doubles the cost over just using RaceDay...
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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    True... But if (like me) you already own the mac; and Parallels, and have an old windows XP license laying around, then the incremental cost is WKO+ or ... Race Day.

    and ... wait, this is BF. The center of the intar-webs for patching self-loathing with extremely overpriced toys that only deepen your sense of personal fail. And you are complaining about an opportunity to spend more than TWICE the cost of a piece of software to compare e-wangs without having to use higher math? Really?
    Last edited by skipmcne; 12-15-08 at 12:45 PM.

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    Besides; if you want to go the "free" route get VMWare.

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    Right now I'm less concerned with how to run WKO on a MAC, what I would like is some input from someone with experience with both, or either. It seems like WKO has the market, but RaceDay will allow the user to analyze the data and achieve similar results? Terminology and mathematics are a bit different, but overall it looks like a nice package, am I missing something?
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    Quote Originally Posted by R900 View Post
    Right now I'm less concerned with how to run WKO on a MAC, what I would like is some input from someone with experience with both, or either. It seems like WKO has the market, but RaceDay will allow the user to analyze the data and achieve similar results? Terminology and mathematics are a bit different, but overall it looks like a nice package, am I missing something?
    It looks like they are targeting tryathletes... maybe another forum with more of them will get you more people that have used it. I had never heard of it before this thread.... it looks interesting, I'll give it a shot just to see if their performance predictions etc. hold for me. I must say the effect curve sounds interesting.

    On their "in depth" page, the Training Stress / Intensity graph and Training Power graph look exactly like their WKO counterparts. The "overview" looks like the performance manager. The predicted performance I'm not so sure about... it is basically just the green line from the overview, they call "performance ability", which looks like level of fitness - fatigue, remarkably similar to TSB... They are claiming that predicts performance, which is a similar concept to TSB except in my experience a hugely positive TSB is about as bad as a hugely negative one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    On their "in depth" page, the Training Stress / Intensity graph and Training Power graph look exactly like their WKO counterparts. The "overview" looks like the performance manager. The predicted performance I'm not so sure about... it is basically just the green line from the overview, they call "performance ability", which looks like level of fitness - fatigue, remarkably similar to TSB...
    Both systems are based off of earlier work done by Bannister et al, hence the similarities.

    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    They are claiming that predicts performance, which is a similar concept to TSB except in my experience a hugely positive TSB is about as bad as a hugely negative one.
    This brings up one the biggest limitations to the performance manager, it doesn't attempt to predict performance whereas Bannisters impulse-response model did. Instead of predicting performance they came up with the TSB construct that models "adaptation to current training load."

    In all fairness it is difficult to determine the various constants in Bannister's impulse response model for a given athlete and training program so the performance manager really is a good compromise. You get a fairly good impulse-response model but with much less effort. I have run both models side by side and they compare fairly well.

    Raceday claims to determine the model constants on it's own but Dr Skiba hasn't been very clear on how exactly it does that. It also uses exponentially weighted moving average power instead of a 30s moving average to calculate its version of normalized power, which is more elegant and in theory could be better; however, in practice the difference is negligible.

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    Thanks, I'm leaning toward RaceDay, as it runs native on the MAC, but if WKO+ was far better I could go that route. I'll check over at Slowtwitch, and see what the tri guys say.
    Time to Ride...

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    Keep us posted. I'm running an older Motorola Mac and am curious about this option. A whole new platform for WKO is a deal breaker for me on the Powertap issue.
    Mike
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    I have used both products and still do. The question regarding which program predicts performance is simple, RaceDay does a much better job. How it does, is based on periodic tests performed by the athlete. Experience has shown that you need about 6 tests (mini TT's) done so all the variables are the same (riding on an indoor trainer for instance), over the course of a few weeks. After this period, you will only need to test if you feel the model is not performing well. You also need to be "anal" about keeping your log (this excludes a bunch of people). Is it perfect? No, but if you train consistenty and have a regular schedule (sleep, eat, work, train...) you will get some good information.

    RaceDay works better for single sport athletes, especially cyclist w/powermeters. Triathletes have to run 3 seperate models and "figure out" how they all work together, but it is still useful for them as well. I have been competing since 1987 and I thought I knew my body pretty well. I learned some interesting things from RaceDay about how I recover and am better able to plan my hard and easy sessions. For instance, I would have thougth for sure that a hard training session on Thursday was going to tire me too much for a Sunday race, but the model said I could do it. I trained really hard Thursday, was sore as hell Friday, still tired on Saturday, but on Sunday I raced liked a champ (well almost, I got 3rd).

    What is interesting is the model will show different results for different people and if you are a triathlete, different results for different sports.

    I have attended the training w/power seminar with Coggan/Hunter and coaching seminars with Skiba. All bright people. I like both programs, but for this one thing (prediction of performance) it is RaceDay all the way.

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    Shill-riffic.

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    Been using it all year. So far very pleased, just completed my big annual evert, and I think it helped me train and get ready, as well as taper, had a PR and big improvement over last year. I've also been peaking in TT''s with several PR's the last month or so. Only negative is the rim on my PowerTap wheel cracked, so between getting a new wheel, and then some problems with it, I'm still without my PT going on about 7 weeks now. I used past history and my gut to determine the training loads. I'll be glad to get some real data again, hopefully this week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FinishStrong View Post
    I have used both products and still do. The question regarding which program predicts performance is simple, RaceDay does a much better job. How it does, is based on periodic tests performed by the athlete. Experience has shown that you need about 6 tests (mini TT's) done so all the variables are the same (riding on an indoor trainer for instance), over the course of a few weeks. After this period, you will only need to test if you feel the model is not performing well. You also need to be "anal" about keeping your log (this excludes a bunch of people). Is it perfect? No, but if you train consistenty and have a regular schedule (sleep, eat, work, train...) you will get some good information.

    RaceDay works better for single sport athletes, especially cyclist w/powermeters. Triathletes have to run 3 seperate models and "figure out" how they all work together, but it is still useful for them as well. I have been competing since 1987 and I thought I knew my body pretty well. I learned some interesting things from RaceDay about how I recover and am better able to plan my hard and easy sessions. For instance, I would have thougth for sure that a hard training session on Thursday was going to tire me too much for a Sunday race, but the model said I could do it. I trained really hard Thursday, was sore as hell Friday, still tired on Saturday, but on Sunday I raced liked a champ (well almost, I got 3rd).

    What is interesting is the model will show different results for different people and if you are a triathlete, different results for different sports.

    I have attended the training w/power seminar with Coggan/Hunter and coaching seminars with Skiba. All bright people. I like both programs, but for this one thing (prediction of performance) it is RaceDay all the way.
    I seriously doubt that 6 performance data points is enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skipmcne View Post
    Besides; if you want to go the "free" route get Golden Cheetah.
    Fixed that for you.
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    I honestly run WKO just because so many people here have it and it is helpful when discussing things and trying to fix problems.

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    [B]I seriously doubt that 6 performance data points is enough.[B]

    There is nothing stopping you from performing more tests, but it rarely does little to change R-squared. The tests are not the only data points. The model must include your actual training as well. If you do one test over 6 weeks and ride 5 days a week, you'll include another 30 inputs in the model (BikeScore, TSS, TRIMPS, ect...).

    Sometimes we'll throw out the first test when an athlete does one of these short TT and is not use to pacing (i.e. goes out too hard/easy). In that case we would do more than 6. You can also do a few extra tests throughout the year if you feel the model is not working as well as you like. 6 tests is not a magic number, but seems to do the trick for most from my experience.

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    Senior Member admcptch's Avatar
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    For another OSX option, this was posted in a recent thread you all might remember from the 41.

    Looks pretty interesting -- http://www.montebellosoftware.com/

    Seems it only works with Garmin devices though, so I guess no PT headunit syncing.
    Last edited by admcptch; 07-28-09 at 10:39 AM.
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