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  1. #1
    carbon is too light procrit's Avatar
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    TSS / ATL / CTL / TSB Simplified?

    TSS is training load for one ride. ATL is a weekly rolling sum of TSS. CTL is a 6 week rolling sum of ATL. TSB is the difference between CTL and ATL.

    From what I understand, I basically should try increasing my ATL by say 5% a week for 4-6 weeks, then back off for a week to recover/peak. Then start all over again, but with a higher initial ATL (if the previoius block went well), go for 4-6 weeks, then back off to again recover/peak. The goal is to drive your CTL as high as possible without overtraining, then when you drop your ATL, your TSB will spike.

    In other words, train hard, take a rest week, then race. The CTL is basically quantifying how hard you trained [over the training block], your ATL is how much you are [currently] resting [or training], and your TSB predicts how in shape you are going to be, at least compared to yourself in other instances.

    I know there are many smaller caveats in there, but that is the general theory right?
    Last edited by procrit; 12-16-08 at 12:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    ATL and CTL are not so simple, in terms of how they're calculated. CTL is a degrading average that favors more recent workouts, I think.

    I like to think about it this way: CTL is your fitness, ATL is your freshness. Fitness + Freshness = Form (TSB).

    You want to gradually increase your CTL, signifying increasing fitness, and you want to keep your ATL in check so that come race day, you're pretty fresh.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  3. #3
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    You guys should get help, or head to a church where they'll think you're speaking in tongues and chip statues of you.

  4. #4
    carbon is too light procrit's Avatar
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    whoops edited... =)

  5. #5
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    You guys should get help, or head to a church where they'll think you're speaking in tongues and chip statues of you.
    Coming from the dude spending over 20 hours on a trainer this week, I have to chuckle..

    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

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    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Fair enough, but at least I speak English!

  7. #7
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Fair enough, but at least I speak English!
    As someone that works in the world of the military-industrial complex, I have to say that the amount of acronyms present in the power training world is weak in comparison.

  8. #8
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    You guys should get help, or head to a church where they'll think you're speaking in tongues and chip statues of you.
    They'd get burned at the stake Gary.

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    Senior Member TideCrazy3193's Avatar
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    So where should our CTL, ATL, TSB be in we are in 'base'? Relatively speaking of course. Anyone care to post some graphs?

  10. #10
    I am the cheese sgrundy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by procrit View Post
    TSS is training load for one ride. ATL is a weekly rolling sum of TSS. CTL is a 6 week rolling sum of ATL. TSB is the difference between CTL and ATL.

    From what I understand, I basically should try increasing my ATL by say 5% a week for 4-6 weeks, then back off for a week to recover/peak. Then start all over again, but with a higher initial ATL (if the previoius block went well), go for 4-6 weeks, then back off to again recover/peak. The goal is to drive your CTL as high as possible without overtraining, then when you drop your ATL, your TSB will spike.

    In other words, train hard, take a rest week, then race. The CTL is basically quantifying how hard you trained [over the training block], your ATL is how much you are [currently] resting [or training], and your TSB predicts how in shape you are going to be, at least compared to yourself in other instances.

    I know there are many smaller caveats in there, but that is the general theory right?
    CTL is an exponentially weighted 6 week average of TSS.

    The recommended ramp rate for CTL is 3-8 tss/d every week.

    4-6 weeks of training is not enough before your first peak; you should have at least 8 weeks of base training plus a month or two of build.

    A taper is not the same thing as a rest week. How long you taper for depends on the event you're doing and can last anywhere from days to weeks.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgrundy View Post
    CTL is an exponentially weighted 6 week average of TSS.
    CTL is an exponentially weighted average of TSS. It includes all workouts going back as far as there is data for the calculation. Six weeks only comes in because it is the default time constant for the calculation in WKO+.

  12. #12
    Newbie skipper0802's Avatar
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    CTL & ATL Exponential Weighting Factors - Is this really the case?

    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    CTL is an exponentially weighted average of TSS. It includes all workouts going back as far as there is data for the calculation. Six weeks only comes in because it is the default time constant for the calculation in WKO+.
    I read the works of Banister (original TRIMPS author), and Busso et al. (advanced Banisters impulse/response equation).


    I also understand that the 42 and 7 day respective time constants are the settings that best fit the data at that time. I understand that Dr. Coggan et al., improved upon this work.

    Yes, CTL and ATL are exponentially weighted moving averages. I think the equation looks like this:


    The weighting factor (alpha or lambda depending on who's equation you look at) ranges between 0 and 1. A factor closer to 1 mean that the more recent events carry more influence. A factor closer to zero means that more influence is given to historical events. My question is this:

    Given that alpha = 2/n+1

    alphaCTL =2/(42+1) = 0.046 and

    alphaATL =2/(7+1) = 0.25

    Both of these results are very close to 0. I expected the factors to be more like 0.2 and 0.8 respectively. Is the weighting factor really that sensitive? Can someone shed some light on this?

    Thanks,
    -Eric

  13. #13
    avatar by Sean Powers mike868y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TideCrazy3193 View Post
    So where should our CTL, ATL, TSB be in we are in 'base'? Relatively speaking of course. Anyone care to post some graphs?
    This will be different for everyone. For example, right now my ctl is probably a little higher than it should be (trying to build up before december which will be a busy month for me) at 86. But, umd's ctl is something redic (100+). TSB and ATL should vary depending on your workouts. After a few hard rides atl will be high, tsb low, but with a day or two of recovering ctl will go up and atl down.
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it depends

  14. #14
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    As someone that works in the world of the military-industrial complex, I have to say that the amount of acronyms present in the power training world is weak in comparison.
    I have a similar job. On one assignment I got a book with what had to be 150 pages of acronyms and abbreviations. I had a boss that was genuinely proud to introduce a new acronym to such a book based on our project. It was like he invented a new word for Merriam Webster or something.

  15. #15
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skipper0802 View Post
    I Can someone shed some light on this?
    This is a question for the wattage list. Perhaps Dr Coggan will answer it there.

    But before you join, you'd better see what you're getting into.


  16. #16
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by skipper0802 View Post

    Both of these results are very close to 0. I expected the factors to be more like 0.2 and 0.8 respectively. Is the weighting factor really that sensitive? Can someone shed some light on this?

    Thanks,
    -Eric
    Work backwards from your proposed smoothing factors to the n value. 36 hours is extremely acute and 9 days isn't very chronic.

    Secondly, if you read the work of Bannister you know that they determined the fitting constants for a number of athletes. The default EWMA smoothing factors (which you are free to change) weren't just randomly picked, they are values that yield the same general shape as the Bannister model.

  17. #17
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    This is a question for the wattage list. Perhaps Dr Coggan will answer it there.

    But before you join, you'd better see what you're getting into.

    +1

    That place can get nerdtastic in a heartbeat. I'm in Mensa and still can't hang. I post there and then read the responses and think to myself, "Ride harder, longer. Got it."

  18. #18
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    I sense pwnage

  19. #19
    Newbie skipper0802's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    But before you join, you'd better see what you're getting into.

    Thanks for the vid link...that was hilarious!
    -Eric

  20. #20
    Newbie skipper0802's Avatar
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    Thanks Enthalpic.

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