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  1. #1
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Cross training and building power

    What various exercises do you guys and gals enjoy doing to help build overall power output in the off season--off the bike, if anything.

    And on a related note, is it feasible or efficient to build power and endurance independently like this?

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    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    I ride my bike. Like, a lot, even.

    All sarcasm aside, I've yet to see any conclusive evidence that any sort of cross training, aside from injury prevention, has any tangible benefits in trained cyclists.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

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    I run (pretty slowly) a couple times per week. It might, or might not, improve my general aerobic base. I definitely enjoy it, which helps prevent burnout, and that is what I'd call a tangible benefit

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    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    I ride my bike. Like, a lot, even.

    All sarcasm aside, I've yet to see any conclusive evidence that any sort of cross training, aside from injury prevention, has any tangible benefits in trained cyclists.
    The goal isn't to enhance cycling for any other reason than the fact that there are a few days a week where i only have a little time in the gym before work and no time after work due to the other gig i'm involved in. If i'm going to be in the gym for certain amounts of time i'd rather put it to good use.

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    Killing Rabbits
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    Running and cross-country skiing seem to maintain my cycling power pretty well, even when I’m doing a lot less cycling. However, neither activity seems to increase my cycling power; but they certainly increase my “whole body fitness” and my ability to run and ski.

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    Senior Member euphoria's Avatar
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    I really cannot recommend yoga enough to improve on-bike comfort; tight muscles lead to sloppy positions. For my money, swimming provides the greatest yield for time invested, but you do run the risk of jersey sleeves getting a little too snug.

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    Senior Member Coyote2's Avatar
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    Buy and read Base Building for Cyclists. Lots of good advice about off-season cross training.

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    Robbie McEwen Wannabe tbrown524's Avatar
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    Stairs.
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    "Meyrueis, Lozere, June 26, 1977. Hot and overcast. I take my gear out of the car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of those lives shocks me."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    I ride my bike. Like, a lot, even.

    All sarcasm aside, I've yet to see any conclusive evidence that any sort of cross training, aside from injury prevention, has any tangible benefits in trained cyclists.
    Pylometrics..... and plenty of evidence to boot.
    Please remember that all statements unless quoted, are strictly my opinion of what happened. That there are as many opinions as there are spectators attending. I just choose to publish mine on this forum. And would NEVER intend to purposely hurt or discredit any other cyclist.... With that said... HTFU!

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    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
    Pylometrics..... and plenty of evidence to boot.
    Show me studies that show that plyometrics result in increase power at threshold in trained cyclists.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

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    From the Aussie track guys. YMMV.

    Australian track cyclists more or less dominated the Athens Olympics track
    program with six gold medals. Here is a unique view from the strength and
    conditioning coach. My apologies if the following has been posted
    previously. It is doing the rounds of some bike forums, so some may have
    already seen it. Lightly edited by me for the forum. There's no name on it
    and that's how I came upon it, but the guy's name is no secret.

    Just a few points of interest. Ryan Bayley, mentioned below, won the Athens
    individual sprint gold. Check out the last para for some insights into the
    last thread on 'endurance paradox'. Note the squat and jump data. My oh my!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    "I am currently the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Australian
    National Sprint Cycling Team and have been for about five years. I am also
    the Strength Scientist for the South Australian Sports Institute in
    Adelaide, Australia, where the National Sprint Program is based. In
    addition, for "fun", I help coach a group of developmental sprint cyclists,
    which form the core of our SA State Sprint team and half of whom are now in
    the Top 10 sprinters in Australia, which would make them National champions
    in all but a handful of countries and, when I get time, I roll around the
    track myself.

    Some points (for free):

    1. We don't keep any secrets from anyone, including the Poms, the Frogs, Ze
    Germans or the Yanks. In fact, people just generally don't believe what we
    tell them, disagree or their programs (or minds) are too set in concrete to
    change. We invite other top riders to train with us and they get faster, but
    they go home and do the same old thing. The Head Coach, support staff and I
    are happy to tell anyone and everyone what we do. We usually just don't get
    time to sit around on chat rooms or make social chit chat on E-mail, let
    alone write a book.

    What Charlie Walsh and Gary West used to do with our sprinters when they
    were the Head Coaches was state of the art at the time and they are both
    great coaches. You will not find anyone in Australian Cycling who will
    question that or say a word against what they did at the time, but times
    have changed and those methods are not quite enough to consistently hit the
    top spots now, although you can still be troublesome internationally if
    you've got natural speed. The top speeds have gone to a new level and to
    reach that level, you have to specialise your sprint riders more. I'm sure
    if Charlie and Westy were still coaching the Oz team, they wouldn't be doing
    exactly the same things they were doing ten years ago. They are too smart
    for that.

    Most of what we do is based on methods and research that have been around
    for decades but have not been applied to cycling. It has mostly been used in
    athletics and we have copied a lot from that and what the French and Germans
    have done at various times. The Brits were formerly coached by our current
    Head Track Coach, so they do a lot of similar things too. What the Dutch are
    doing now, I'm not sure, but they were mostly all speed skaters before they
    were top cyclists, so maybe there's something in that.

    2. We are constantly trying new things and changing what we do, so what we
    do this year will be different to what we did last year and so on. Australia
    is a small country and is competing with some real powerhouses in terms of
    talent pools, resources and money that we can't even dream of matching, so
    we have to be a step ahead or we're not in the race.

    3. What sprinters did 10 years ago is completely different to what most of
    the top sprinters are doing now. The critical factors that determine success
    or failure have changed. Tactics have changed and the tournament formats
    have changed. Training that would win 10 years ago is generally not as
    successful today, but every dog has his or her day and some old-school
    trainers still come out on top now and again, but it is happening less and
    less.

    4. Our philosophy is simple. Most events are speed endurance. To win you
    need to go faster for longer than the other guy or gal. Some riders are
    better at faster, some are better at longer, but they generally need a bit
    of both. To have speed endurance, first you need speed. If you can't ride
    5.0 for a flying 100m, you won't ride 10.1 for a 200m. Speed is hard to
    train and takes a long time. Endurance is easy by comparison and we just
    chuck that on at the end. To get up to speed, you need acceleration and that
    means power. Power is a combination of strength and speed. The speed part
    you get on the track, the strength you get in the gym. Low cadence power
    (0-120rpm or so) we can train in the gym too, but high cadence power
    (120-200rpm) is too fast to do in the gym and you generally need to be
    chasing a maniac on a motorbike (e.g., our Head Coach) down the bank to
    increase that. Or at least, someone faster than you to break the wind so you
    can go overspeed.

    5. Aerobic Capacity (VO2max, AT) is the base for enduros, strength is the
    base for sprinters. We do three gym sessions and two track sessions for most
    of the year. Road is just for recovery, to keep them a little bit lean and
    to keep the sprinters out of the pub and out of trouble. It is generally a
    max of 2hrs, but mostly only 1 and is very easy - talking the whole time.

    6. When strength is the focus, we don't care what numbers they pump out on
    track, just what they lift. When power or speed is the focus, we back the
    gym off (2/wk and easier sessions) so we can get the numbers we want on the
    track (3-4/wk). Generally, half the year is spent focussed on strength and
    half on power and speed (roughly - depends on competitive calendar) although
    we always train a bit of everything, it's just the proportion of each that
    changes. The strength work is not all done in one block. We cycle through
    strength, power and speed at least twice per year.

    7. Gym is generally 3-4sets of 3 max lower body strength or power lifts -
    early in the phase, two strength and one power, later, two power and one
    strength. I don't use cleans, jerks or snatches with our current riders -
    they are too technical for maximal efforts unless you have years of
    experience. We do one bilateral strength lift each session for "core"
    strength (Squat, Deadlift, Romanian Deadlift) - usually lower back is the
    limiting factor not legs and this is the only reason I use these lifts - for
    back strength in standing starts. The rest of the lifts are unilateral. How
    many feet do you push each pedal with at one time? If you train bilaterally
    you get stronger bilaterally and unilateral strength lags behind. If you
    train unilaterally, you get stronger unilaterally. It's a neural thing.

    Single-leg Press is our bread and butter. Different foot and hip positions
    for different phases of pedal stroke, standing, seated, etc. I use high
    speed video to match joint angles and velocities for each rider. We mainly
    do it ballistically for power - throw the sled as far as you can - at
    different percentages of max to match up to different muscle contraction
    velocities for different phases of the acceleration (different cadences). We
    do a lot of single-leg plyos on boxes, stairs, bunjee sleds, etc during
    speed phases. Strength and power gains are extremely specific and do not
    necessarily transfer well. When Ryan Bayley beat Sean Eadie in the
    Commonwealth Games sprint final in 2002, Sean was tripling 250kg for a
    parallel back squat and Ryan was tripling 120kg. On single-leg press, they
    were much closer (20kg) and so was the racing.

    Single-leg squats (front and back) and deadlifts usually make up the third
    exercise and are as much for pelvic stability as strength. I'm going to try
    single-leg pulls and cleans this year, but these will not be our primary
    power exercises - more of a preparation for the work before Beijing. We have
    done SL squats, deadlifts and pulls for years now and the riders are pretty
    stable. An example of numbers - our best single-leg squat figures are 3 @
    165kg on each leg (just over 360lbs). The weakest of the girls (who just
    entered the squad this year) is 3 @ 80kg on each leg, but she only weighs
    about 50kg. Two riders have done the 165kg so far. We have riders who can do
    sets of standing hops onto 1m+ boxes. The lowest is for one of the girls and
    is a 70cm box for sets of 8 each leg.

    8. Upper body, we do two exercise per session (a push and a pull in the same
    plane of movement, different each day) in general prep and two per week in
    specific prep (both pulls) so they can keep hold of the handlebars in
    standing starts. The girls are starting to push themselves off the bike,
    their legs are so strong (around 3 @ 250kg on each leg for the girls and up
    to 350kg for the guys on SLP). Abs and core, we do two per session - one
    mainly flexion, one mainly extension. Some have rotational or lateral
    components, but not isometric holds or pilates mumbo jumbo. If their "core
    stability" is poor, they wouldn't be able to squat on one leg. Lying on the
    ground and waving your legs in the air doesn't transfer to the bike. That
    might annoy the physio's and guru's who make money out of Swiss balls and
    all that stuff, but I tried it for three years in 20 different sports and it
    didn't make any difference to performance or injury rates. They get really
    good at balancing on a ball, but there's no Olympic event for that. It
    doesn't transfer to the sport. Fix their technical problems in the actual
    technique (soapbox time is now over).

    9. A Gym session lasts about 2.5-3 hours for 6 or 7 exercises, a maximum of
    33 sets including 12 warm-ups sets, so that's about one set every six
    minutes or more on average. We don't set maximum rests, just minimums. If
    they need longer to get their heads in gear, they take it. Ryan Bayley is
    the slowest trainer in the world. Lucky he's so bloody fast, they'll pay my
    bill to sit there and talk about muscle cars and heavy metal music. Reps are
    a maximum of 6 for strength, and 4 - 15 for power (less for high percentages
    - 60-70% max, more for low percentages - 20%, or BW for plyos) Total
    contraction time for a set (not counting hang time in the air) is around
    6-8s max - phosphate energy system all the way. Minimum of 2 min rest, but
    that is never in danger. Only the phosphate energy system can deliver energy
    fast enough for maximal work and you've got about 8s max.

    10. On the track they take about 3 hours for 3 or 4 efforts including half
    hour warm-up routine - same as pre-race warm-up. Warm-up, change gears,
    roll-up, effort, roll down 20-30min rest, roll-up, effort, etc. Lot's more
    rest. Rest usually consists of sitting on their arses, paying out on each
    other, drinking Coca Cola (sponsorship please - the Coke bill is killing us)
    and the occasional chocolate cake. This is especially good when there is a
    joint sprinter/enduro training session. (Enduros don't get any cake -
    they're too paranoid about body fat). In general prep phase, the sprinters
    ride to track and gym (15-20min easy each way) and in spec prep, they drive..
    Each track effort is no longer than about 15s and usually less than 10s.
    Again, mainly phosphate system.

    11. The one thing we do that most coaches can't cop is this. If you don't
    make the target times or loads on the first effort or set, you warm down and
    go home. You aren't fresh enough to train at a level that will make you
    improve. If you do a PB, you warm down and go home. If you are on fire that
    much you can blow yourself to pieces in a couple of sets or efforts and it
    will take weeks to dig you out of the hole you put yourself in, so whatever
    it is, if you PB, you stop and come back next time. This philosophy takes
    everyone a while to accept, but it works. When we don't follow the rules, if
    we let someone pump out a series of PBs in one session, they are almost
    invariably wrecked for weeks afterwards and we never get close to quality
    training during that time. Sometimes, you can see it coming, but sometimes
    it just comes out of the blue. When it does, warm down, go home. Sometimes,
    at lower levels you can get away with it, but the better you get, the more
    capacity you have to exceed your normal limits, the more this becomes
    important. Enduros don't need to do this. Everything is submaximal.

    12. In general prep, the sprinters might do 2 x 1hr easy aerobic/coffee
    rides per week and an easier recovery ride on days off (unless the're too
    fat, then they might do 2hrs and less chocolate cake). This year, we are
    doing a total of six aerobic development rides (over Christmas - fat time).
    In spec prep, they just do the recovery rides.

    13. We generally always do track after gym. Gym in mornings (8:30am-11/12)
    track in the arvo (2:30/3pm-5:30/6pm). If the gym session is too hard, it
    will bugger them for track. As I said, for about half the year, we don't
    care. For the other half, I water down the gym so the track work is 100%.
    There is some short term potentiation from doing some maximal strength or
    power efforts but the research is not clear on time frames since everyone
    does something different. This is one thing we are looking at. If we do two
    maximal power ergo tests (6s with 4-5min recovery), the second one is always
    much better. The same has been shown with some contrast-loading studies on
    squats and plyos, etc., but an equal number of studies have shown no effect..
    The time courses and stimuli are always different though, so it's hard to
    compare. I think there's something in it so if you find something that works
    for you, go with it. The exception is start sessions. We never do standing
    starts after gym. If we do, they are always crap sessions.

    14. Coming up to the major comp for the year (Worlds or Olympics), we slot
    in a speed endurance block. This involves the addition of some longer
    sustained efforts or sets of short efforts with low recovery once or twice
    per week, usually one on an ergo and one on the track. This increases the
    muscles ability to buffer hydrogen ions from the anaerobic glycolysis energy
    pathway that you have to rely on when the phosphates run out and increases
    the enzyme capacity of that pathway as well, so it can run at a higher
    level. Adaptation is relatively fast and 6-8wks will usually give a massive
    increase in this capacity.

    15. Here's the logic.
    Volume is a speed killer. It doesn't matter what you do, if you do a lot, it
    will make you slower. The protein in your muscles (myosin heavy chain
    isoforms for those who know their molecular biology) will change to a
    slower, more endurance friendly type if you do too much volume. This is
    individually variable, but two sessions every day of anything will make you
    slower as will lots of aerobic work. You might still be fast for an enduro,
    but in sprinter terms, you're still slow.

    Going slow makes you slow. If you want to be able to go faster, then going
    at less than maximal speed generally won't do it. If it does, then you
    weren't operating at 100% before. That's OK. Most people can't switch
    everything on. You have to practice it. It takes years to reach your 100%
    level even without any actual physiological improvement. Most sprint events
    require sustained power output at cadences over 160rpm. If you don't
    practice this, you won't get good at it. Most people will spend all their
    bickies just getting up to 160rpm on a decent gear, so to train maximally at
    that level, you have to get up to 160rpm without using up your phosphate
    stores. That's where the motor bike comes in. Use the slipstream to get up
    to max speed or over and then spend your bickies. That way you work
    maximally at maximal speed. You have to train your nervous system to
    coordinate your muscular contractions at that speed.

    Same in the gym. If all you do is slow, heavy. You get STRONG and SLOW. You
    need to do most of your work at race speeds using submaximal loads but at
    high speeds. If you can't do single-leg stuff, then Olympic pulling
    movements are your next best option, but unloaded plyos are more important
    for higher cadences. You don't need to be able to clean or snatch or jerk.
    The pull phase from the floor to full hip and knee extension is where the
    gains come from. What happens after that doesn't matter. You can throw the
    bar out of the window and the gains will be the same. I would only recommend
    this on your last rep as most gym owners get quite irate about their
    equipment being heaved out into the street, as do passing pedestrians. The
    overspeed work will come as you try to get away.

    Use your maximum capacities at the maximum rate and in as specific a way as
    possible to transfer to the bike. I can outlift all our top riders in the
    gym and out-power them on the ergo, but I'm not in the race on the track. I
    can't put my power through the bike into the track. I'm just not technically
    as good as they are. Ryan Bayley may look like a monkey humping a tennis
    ball when he sprints but most of his power is getting onto the track.

    ....

    Weight training for enduros - the same strategies apply but maximal strength
    and power are less critical. All endurance riding, even the bunch sprint at
    the end, is really submaximal. A little bit of gym regularly helps to
    maintain the structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and
    prepare you for crashes, but the real gains come on the road. Racing is the
    best training. All our best track enduros race on the road in Europe. They
    come together for camps to touch up their track skills, but all of that was
    learnt as juniors and in domestic track racing on the way up. For strength
    endurance on the bike, ride up hills in the saddle on bigger gears. That was
    the only strength work out team pursuit did for the last three years and
    they won everything there was to win with a bucket load of world records to
    boot. Incidentally, they are also the fastest starters."

  12. #12
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dysFTP View Post
    Weight training for enduros - the same strategies apply but maximal strength
    and power are less critical. All endurance riding, even the bunch sprint at
    the end, is really submaximal. A little bit of gym regularly helps to
    maintain the structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and
    prepare you for crashes, but the real gains come on the road. Racing is the
    best training. All our best track enduros race on the road in Europe. They
    come together for camps to touch up their track skills, but all of that was
    learnt as juniors and in domestic track racing on the way up. For strength
    endurance on the bike, ride up hills in the saddle on bigger gears. That was
    the only strength work out team pursuit did for the last three years and
    they won everything there was to win with a bucket load of world records to
    boot. Incidentally, they are also the fastest starters."

    So is this supposed to be evidence to show that plyos and weight training are going to help boost threshold power?

    Because that basically says that they do it for "structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and
    prepare you for crashes"
    .

    None of the rest of that (all but the last paragraph, which I quoted) is applicable to road cyclists in the least.
    Last edited by Duke of Kent; 01-24-09 at 04:16 PM.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  13. #13
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    I came across this last night and i'm very interested as i have been doing a bit of leg presses. The guy's theory is sound in terms of building power in the legs but i don't know if i can agree with him on the building of the core independently. One of the biggest setbacks i always have in the beginning of the season is length of rides, not because i'm tired in the lungs, heart, or legs but in my lower back and i'm convinced this is due to a weak core. My bike isn't all that aggressively set up either...

    http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=167971
    Quote Originally Posted by thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Zutroy
    EC yes it is true that, your core is taken out of the equation. However, saying a blanket statement like that is false. If you build a strong core with other exercises, it's a moot point. Leg presses have a time and place like all other exercises, to make a blanket statement that they are useless is false.
    This is continued from a challenge made to my Top 3 Exercises for Gate Starts post that also made it's way to the Thread Locked post. I stated that, outside of some injury related reason, that the leg press should never be used in an MTB specific strength training program. I made the "injury related" qualification because I do believe that a good strength coach should have the critical thinking skills to figure out where and how any tool could be used, even something as bad as the leg press or Smith machine (that should open up another can of worms).

    However, unless an injury specifically calls for it, the leg press is a huge waste of valuable training time. In response to Zutroy's point above, what you suggest is physically impossible. You are able to expose your legs to a much higher intensity level (raw weight lifted) through the leg press than you can with just about any other exercise in the gym. Unless you are able to introduce the core to a load similar to that used in the leg press and have it practice the specific function of stabalizing that load, then the core will never be strong enough to handle the same load you have exposed your legs to.

    This means that your legs will have the strength to produce a certain amount of force but will be unable to use it all on the bike because the core can not form a strong enough platform to display the strength from. You are only as strong as your weakest link, which is usually the cores ability to form a strong, stable platform. The only way to work on this specific function of the core is to expose it to that specific demand, which the leg press and "core specific" exercises do not. The only lower body exercises that do are the deadlift variations, squat variations and countless uni-lateral bodyweight and freeweight movements, making them the best choice if you are really interested in getting the biggest return on your training time investment.

    Trying to build leg strength and core strength independantly of each other and then expect for them to optimally integrate on the bike is not backed by neither science, logic nor real world results. This is referred to as "Frankenstien" training since you are trying to "piece" your body together and is directly related to the bodybuilding mentality that pervades every corner of the strength and fitness industry. We are ultimately training movement patterns, not simply muscle groups, and until you approach training with this understanding you simply can not maximize your training time or riding potential.

    Zutroy, I don't mean to be overly critical of your posts, but you did say that I was flat out wrong, and I truly do not believe that I am. I would greatly appreciate any backing that you might have for your position. I would very much like to discuss your point of view further if you would like, or even open it up to anyone else that has a question or some insight.

  14. #14
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Start coming to trainer classes at the shop.

    Outside of that I do Yoga/core work via Cyclo-Core, and run. Mainly running helps me with knee issues. I remember reading an article once that mentioned that cyclists have horrible bone density and that running even a little bit can go a long way towards reversing that - helping keep wrecks from turning into wrecks with broken (collar)bones.

  15. #15
    Raptor Custom Bicycles ZXiMan's Avatar
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    ^^^^^

    Drink milk...


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  16. #16
    Raptor Custom Bicycles ZXiMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyquest View Post
    What various exercises do you guys and gals enjoy doing to help build overall power output in the off season--off the bike, if anything.

    And on a related note, is it feasible or efficient to build power and endurance independently like this?
    The weather has been so nice here, I haven't had a chance to take some time off the bike yet!

    I build power and endurance on the bike. Cross training just keeps you from slipping back into the dark ages (or beginning stages) of your training so you don't lose much of what you gained.

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  17. #17
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
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    explosive kettlebell work: cleans and snatches. Just to keep the fast twitch side of things from getting too lost amongst all the endurance and threshold work on the bike. I know that sprints on the bike (NP work) is better, but I'm unwilling to sacrifice any LT work to the gods of the sprint.
    I have a sense that working some fast twitch movements (and the full body coordination that comes with it) in the gym is worth my time, as it does not take away from my on bike performance.

    It is also a quick way to burn a few cals and spark up the metabolism, hopefully leading to a bit less BF... which as we know is good.

    I suppose that once I DO start with NP work on the bike, my fast twitch systems will be a bit less de-conditioned then if I'd not been doing the explosive weight work... but this is ALL conjecture.

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  18. #18
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZXiMan View Post
    ^^^^^

    Drink milk...

    Pull up a glass of milk and read.
    http://www.google.com/search?gbv=2&h...ty+in+cyclists

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyquest View Post
    What various exercises do you guys and gals enjoy doing to help build overall power output in the off season--off the bike, if anything.

    And on a related note, is it feasible or efficient to build power and endurance independently like this?
    do you like riding a bike? seriously, it seems most of your posts are questions about doing something other than riding a bike to benefit your cycling performance. maybe bicycle racing just just isn't for you.

  20. #20
    Banned. timmyquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    do you like riding a bike? seriously, it seems most of your posts are questions about doing something other than riding a bike to benefit your cycling performance. maybe bicycle racing just just isn't for you.
    Well, do you think i'd come in here and ask how to ride a bike? Your logic escapes me. It's like saying "I always have to stop at red lights". Now, if you're question is whether or not i hate "riding" on stationary's or trainers...well yes, i do hate that. Oddly enough, when you search my threads/posts, your thesis falls apart.


    Not to mention,
    It's 5 degrees outside right now...that's not my idea of fun. Your results may vary.
    Last edited by timmyquest; 01-25-09 at 10:36 AM.

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