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  1. #1
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Hypothetical on the breakaway..

    So a not so hypothetical...

    You're in a break with 9 other guys. Five of which are on the same team, but they don't want to work. The other four guys in the break are working with you and seem quite committed to making things stick. To make things more interesting, there's a cat1 woman in the break but she's being scored separately. Oh, and she's working harder than the five guys sporting the same kit.

    The five klingons also have 15 guys in the field, but they're not doing a good job blocking because the break is getting reeled in. You also know that you probably can't roll off the front on your own, and the five guys reel in any attempted attack on the break (you know this because you and two other guys have attacked the break a few times to see if you can frag these guys out).

    What do you do?

    Do you try to make the break stick, knowing you're guaranteed a top-10 but may be wasting yourself for the final sprint, or do you let it collapse and let your sprinter have a shot in a field sprint against the team with 20 guys in it? Please note, any attempt to open another break would bring more of these guys along for the free ride.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    I'd sit until they start working. If they want the move to work, let them pull their fair share.

    Any time you have numbers in a break, the responsibility falls on your team to drive it.

    Seriously, if someone has 5 of 10 in a break, and refuses to work, I'd encourage everyone else to sit on, to spite them. Either they'd start working, or the break would come back. No way in hell I'm dragging 5 ****** bags to the line. F*** that.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  3. #3
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    +1. Sit in until they start working. Then sit in some more. If they start working, do just enough work. Touch the wind a little, then pull off. No point getting to the end when 5 of them can start attacking the heck out of you.
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  4. #4
    cmh
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    I wouldn't work in that break. Let it get caught, than counter attack. Repeat until you are OTF or OTB.

    Or, if you are a good sprinter, let the big team keep it together until the finish, than ride their lead out train and come around their sprinter with 100m to go.

    Either way it is going to be tough against a team of 20 riders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    I'd sit until they start working. If they want the move to work, let them pull their fair share.

    Any time you have numbers in a break, the responsibility falls on your team to drive it.

    Seriously, if someone has 5 of 10 in a break, and refuses to work, I'd encourage everyone else to sit on, to spite them. Either they'd start working, or the break would come back. No way in hell I'm dragging 5 ****** bags to the line. F*** that.
    /discussion ... other than wtf kind of strategery is it to have 5 in a 9 person break and sit on it? that's inexplicable to me.

  6. #6
    carbon is too light procrit's Avatar
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    Grab their rear brake caliper and twist. Good ol 30 watts worth of brake rub will slow them down...

    On a serious note, I would try guttering them if in a crosswind, or swerving side to side in order to keep them from being a leech. At least, that's how most guys have tried to get rid of me.

  7. #7
    Senior Member seanmdo's Avatar
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    The whole scenario is stupid. Why are they even there if noone wants to work. There is probably no satisfying answer since the situation is nearly unheard of in a cat 3 race (or any other).

  8. #8
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanmdo View Post
    The whole scenario is stupid. Why are they even there if noone wants to work. There is probably no satisfying answer since the situation is nearly unheard of in a cat 3 race (or any other).
    It was a masters 35 race. Most of the other four guys who were working were 1's or 2's.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  9. #9
    Foot + Mouth = me aperez8264's Avatar
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    I would have sat on their wheel until either they started working or the break got reeled in.
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  10. #10
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    I guess I would have talked tried to talk to the other 3 guys that were working to jump try and get away from the 5. Attack the break and try to lose a couple of them. Make your numbers a little better.
    EOL Ra Ra F
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  11. #11
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanmdo View Post
    The whole scenario is stupid. Why are they even there if noone wants to work.
    Agreed. Was there someone in the group that was a dominating sprinter? Perhaps they were afraid of towing you to the line Ken to be devestated by your sprint. Thus they weren't going to work as long as you were in the break?

    That said, even if there was a really good sprinter, a team with 5 out of a 10 break, and no ther team with multiple representation, would have to like their odds better than any other scenario they're likely to be able to get.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  12. #12
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    I would do everything possible to make sure the break is reeled back in, then attack again.
    FS: Fuji SL1 frameset, 55.5cm toptube, excellent condition.

  13. #13
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cslone View Post
    I would do everything possible to make sure the break is reeled back in, then attack again.
    The deck had been reshuffled a dozen times all day long already. Every single time it wound up with a similar cast of characters.

    There was a 15 man break earlier that couldn't stick with those bozo's.

    But hey, they've got the fancy team RV.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    The deck had been reshuffled a dozen times all day long already. Every single time it wound up with a similar cast of characters.

    There was a 15 man break earlier that couldn't stick with those bozo's.

    But hey, they've got the fancy team RV.
    did this team line it up for a field sprint and win?

  15. #15
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    I can't/won't sprint. A break is my only chance for a win.
    If it was me, I'd attack the break. I'd try to let the girl or the other hard workers know it was coming.

  16. #16
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
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    Personally? Insinuate myself in the line ahead of the five. Let the four "workers" gap me and the five non-workers. The five have two choices, 1) come around me and "work" to get back on, or 2) watch the new break ride away with zero of their guys. If I could let the "new" break get a 50 meter gap or so, I would then attack the five guys and bridge back up to the "new" break. Wash, rinse, repeat. I am sure there is a name for this, but, not knowing it, I call it "taking out the garbage."

  17. #17
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    Personally? Insinuate myself in the line ahead of the five. Let the four "workers" gap me and the five non-workers. The five have two choices, 1) come around me and "work" to get back on, or 2) watch the new break ride away with zero of their guys. If I could let the "new" break get a 50 meter gap or so, I would then attack the five guys and bridge back up to the "new" break. Wash, rinse, repeat. I am sure there is a name for this, but, not knowing it, I call it "taking out the garbage."
    Thank you. I really like this idea. I'll put that in the bag of tricks and file it away.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  18. #18
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    Personally? Insinuate myself in the line ahead of the five. Let the four "workers" gap me and the five non-workers. The five have two choices, 1) come around me and "work" to get back on, or 2) watch the new break ride away with zero of their guys. If I could let the "new" break get a 50 meter gap or so, I would then attack the five guys and bridge back up to the "new" break. Wash, rinse, repeat. I am sure there is a name for this, but, not knowing it, I call it "taking out the garbage."
    This works best if the "workers" rotate who "takes out the garbage" so it isn't the same guy over and over again. It's kind of hard to get this arranged on the fly, but should be effective if you can do it.
    I'm the world's forgotten boy. The one who's searchin', searchin' to destroy.

  19. #19
    Killing Rabbits
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    Gapping people off the back only works in your favor if you’re a) much stronger than the best “garbage” rider (e.g. DrWJ), or b) have a sacrificial teammate, c) probably going to pop anyways so might as well f’ them over as revenge. I’ve been annoyed enough where option c) would be more rewarding than an 8th place payout.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    Personally? Insinuate myself in the line ahead of the five. Let the four "workers" gap me and the five non-workers. The five have two choices, 1) come around me and "work" to get back on, or 2) watch the new break ride away with zero of their guys. If I could let the "new" break get a 50 meter gap or so, I would then attack the five guys and bridge back up to the "new" break. Wash, rinse, repeat. I am sure there is a name for this, but, not knowing it, I call it "taking out the garbage."
    The Spaniards did this with ~1km to go when Bettini won his first WC, in Salzburg.

    Coming around the final turn and going into a tunnel, the third Spanish dude in leading group basically stopped pedalling or soft pedalled. Bettini, Zabel, Valverde and another leadout man got a 20-30m gap instantly.

    Similarly, Marcus Burghart and Roger Hammond did this two years back to win Gent-Wevelgem. Group of 4 in the last kilo, two T-Mobile riders (Burghart and Hammond). They took Francisco Ventoso off the back of the group with ~800m to go, and Burghart powered off the front to win; Hammond came around Freire for second.

    Call me a dick, but I'll take people off the back simply because I don't know them or I don't think they're worthy of being in the break (usually because I see a weak-ass pull on their part). I'd definitely take idiots off the back if they had 5 guys in the break, gladly sacrificing my own chances if for no other reason than to give someone else a shot at the win.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  21. #21
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    Gapping people off the back only works in your favor if you’re a) much stronger than the best “garbage” rider (e.g. DrWJ), or b) have a sacrificial teammate, c) probably going to pop anyways so might as well f’ them over as revenge. I’ve been annoyed enough where option c) would be more rewarding than an 8th place payout.
    Not necessarily.

    Just insert yourself near the end of the line, second from the back. Let a gap open up. Make them close it. Keep doing this until they pop.

    You can pop several guys off before they figure out what's going on. I've done it.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  22. #22
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    Personally? Insinuate myself in the line ahead of the five. Let the four "workers" gap me and the five non-workers. The five have two choices, 1) come around me and "work" to get back on, or 2) watch the new break ride away with zero of their guys. If I could let the "new" break get a 50 meter gap or so, I would then attack the five guys and bridge back up to the "new" break. Wash, rinse, repeat. I am sure there is a name for this, but, not knowing it, I call it "taking out the garbage."
    Escorting out the back. The technique is very well described by Kribbe in The Rider.

    The guys that are willing to work take turns gaping the guys who aren't. Hard to execute against 5 guys though.
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  23. #23
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Actually Ken, Carlos is a cat2. Moot point though.

    You did the right thing for you. If your team is happy with anything in the top 10, then roll through and let the chips fall. If all that matters is 1st place, then only tap through, and gently discuss with the "big" teams captain why he ought to have at least two of them driving hard.

    Don't forget, most of that team was built out of an MS150 squad. Seriously.

  24. #24
    cmh
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    The only explanation for these 5 is that the team has a top sprinter they wanted to bring to the line. I'm really curious - did they win the race?

  25. #25
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    I changed my mind.

    I'd work. And I'd dive into, and chop out of, every corner along the way.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

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