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  1. #1
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    Heart rate vs power meter

    Glad I did not waste my money on a power meter. Sorry if this was posted before.

    http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6...8611-1,00.html

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    Yup. No point buying a tool if you don't know how to use it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member euphoria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    Yup. No point buying a tool if you don't know how to use it.
    I know it's just Bicycling but we can assume in good faith they did proper LT and MAP testing. Over half the board trains with power so it doesn't take Nostradamus to see where this ship is sailing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphoria View Post
    I know it's just Bicycling but we can assume in good faith they did proper LT and MAP testing.
    You assume a lot. The Bicycling article is a summary of a single research paper focusing on a very specific and limited application of a power meter or heart rate monitor. There is some dispute about the validity of the results; but ignoring that, the most that can be said is there was no difference in performance when the power meter and HRM were applied in that one specific way. The paper never explored the question of whether that was the appropriate manner to employ those tools.

  5. #5
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    So the research says that 2 groups of people doing identical workouts performed statistically equal in terms of improvement. All that this proves is that bolting a powertap on your bike does not necessarily make you faster. Thank you, Bicycling. (BTW, I don't have a power device, but I'd love to. The whole idea is to use it to train differently and more effectively. Duh!)

  6. #6
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
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    what to I type to make a "shakes head in disappointment" face?
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  7. #7
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    The picard facepalm image works nicely

  8. #8
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
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    close enough.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    The picard facepalm image works nicely
    very true..... can a I get a "Pickard Facepalm" please?
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    That article doesn't even make sense.

    half the riders performed intervals at 80 percent of their peak power while the other group used their heart-rate readings that coincided with 80 percent of peak power. Their twice-a-week workouts consisted of eight four-minute intervals with 90 seconds of rest.
    80% of your peak power for 4 minutes? I don't think that is humanly possible.

    Do they mean 80% of your peak 4 minute power?
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  11. #11
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca View Post
    very true..... can a I get a "Pickard Facepalm" please?

  12. #12
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
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    Teammates-on-Podium O'meter: 0/n (n=total # of teammates I get to race with)
    Successful Breakaway O'meter: 0/total number of races entered

    Team/Training blogness:www.thresholdcycling.com

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    sorry, but i'll stick to my powermeter. HR is nearly useless.

  14. #14
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    I wonder... do any power meter manufacturers advertise/support/sponsor Bicycling Magazine?
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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    based on two workouts a week for four weeks. that's some sample.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dws5b View Post
    Glad I did not waste my money on a power meter.

  17. #17
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    I failed because I did not spend $1200 minimum on a power meter that may or may not help me ride my bike faster? I can live with that. I have been riding/racing for almost 20 years now and have seen every kind of wonder thing that will make you faster, I think Eddy had it right when asked how he trains. I ride my bike a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dws5b View Post
    I failed because I did not spend $1200 minimum on a power meter that may or may not help me ride my bike faster? I can live with that. I have been riding/racing for almost 20 years now and have seen every kind of wonder thing that will make you faster, I think Eddy had it right when asked how he trains. I ride my bike a lot.
    You failed because you have no idea of how much a power meter costs in the real world. You failed because you tried to justify your preconceptions with a bad summary of a weak publication. If you don't want to train with a powermeter, fine; just don't try to argue there's no benefit for the rest of us. And you failed because you were unable to distinguish between advances that truly benefit performance (aerobars, deep profile rims, ...) from those that do not.

    You also may want to go back and take a closer look at Merckx's career. He was well known for taking advantage of every technical development available to him. Had he had the chance, he would have been one of the first to adopt power-based training.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    You failed because you have no idea of how much a power meter costs in the real world. You failed because you tried to justify your preconceptions with a bad summary of a weak publication. If you don't want to train with a powermeter, fine; just don't try to argue there's no benefit for the rest of us. And you failed because you were unable to distinguish between advances that truly benefit performance (aerobars, deep profile rims, ...) from those that do not.

    You also may want to go back and take a closer look at Merckx's career. He was well known for taking advantage of every technical development available to him. Had he had the chance, he would have been one of the first to adopt power-based training.
    I have fun riding my bike and I race pretty well, but according to you I fail because I do not have a power meter, I personally do not know the Sport Science Institute of South Africa but apparently you are much smarter than them and me and have seen a dramatic increase in your speed since having one. I just hope we never meet in a race as you and your power meter would certainly crush me. I did not say it could not help some, all I said was I am glad I did not waste my money on one. I am not against power meters I just do not think think the cost is worth it. If I had bought one I would probably try to justify it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dws5b View Post
    I am not against power meters I just do not think think the cost is worth it.
    You can't get through even one sentence without contradicting yourself. You say you're not against power meters, but then say they're not worth the money (at a cost you inflated by almost 100%). If you'd written, "I don't think the cost is worth it to me," everyone would have yawned and gone on their way. By writing what you did, however, you took it a step further and tried to generalize to all the rest of us; each with his or her own goals, training time, and resources (financial and otherwise). By doing so, you failed.

    As to being smarter than the Sport Science Institute of South Africa, you're the one who took the information in their paper and drew conclusions well beyond what they were willing publish. It would seem you're the one who thinks he's smarter than they are.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by euphoria View Post
    I know it's just Bicycling but we can assume in good faith they did proper LT and MAP testing. Over half the board trains with power so it doesn't take Nostradamus to see where this ship is sailing.
    It wasn't bicycling who did this study.

    http://www.nsca-jscr.org/pt/re/jscr/...195629!8091!-1

    Here is the abstract:
    Swart, J, Lamberts, RP, Derman, W, and Lambert, MI. Effects of high-intensity training by heart rate or power in well-trained cyclists. J Strength Cond Res 23(2): 619-625, 2009-The aim of this study was to determine whether the performance of cyclists after 4 weeks of high-intensity training improved similarly using either heart rate or power to prescribe training. Twenty-one well-trained men cyclists (age, 32 6 years; peak power output, 371 46 W) were randomly assigned to a power-based (GPOWER) or heart rate-based (GHEART) high-intensity training (HIT) group or a control group (GCONTROL). Training consisted of 8 repetitions of 4 minutes at either 80% of peak power output (GPOWER) or at the heart rate coinciding with 80% of peak power output (GHEART), with rest periods of 90 seconds. A 40-km time trial and V̇o2max test were performed before and after 8 training sessions. There were significant improvements (p < 0.05) in peak power output (GPOWER = 3.5%; GHEART = 5.0%) and 40-km time trial performance (GPOWER = 2.3%; GHEART = 2.1%) for both of the high-intensity groups. Although there were no significant differences between groups for these variables, when the data were analyzed using magnitude-based effects, the GHEART group showed greater probability of a beneficial effect for peak power output. The current general perception that prescribing training based only on power is more effective than prescribing training based on heart rate was not supported by the data from this study. Coaches who are unable to monitor progress frequently should prescribe training based on heart rate, when intervals are performed under stable conditions, because this may provide an additional advantage over prescribing training using power.


    Notes:
    They used trained subjects.
    Intervals were 8x4 minutes, 90 seconds rest
    The abstract does not explain how the 80% figures (GPOWER and GHEART) were determined.

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    Concerning cost:
    A refurb Garmin Edge 305 can be had for $200. Cheap models cost less than $50.
    The lowest I've seen a Powertap already laced to a wheel is about $700.

    A power meter costs about 3 times as much as a good heart rate monitor. At what point will this 3x factor become worthwhile?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by efficiency View Post
    It wasn't bicycling who did this study.

    http://www.nsca-jscr.org/pt/re/jscr/...195629!8091!-1

    peak power output, 371 46 W
    A peak power of only 371 46 W using well trained athletes!? I'm sure they ment threshold power

  24. #24
    Ho-Jahm Hocam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dws5b View Post
    I have fun riding my bike and I race pretty well, but according to you I fail because I do not have a power meter, I personally do not know the Sport Science Institute of South Africa but apparently you are much smarter than them and me and have seen a dramatic increase in your speed since having one. I just hope we never meet in a race as you and your power meter would certainly crush me. I did not say it could not help some, all I said was I am glad I did not waste my money on one. I am not against power meters I just do not think think the cost is worth it. If I had bought one I would probably try to justify it too.
    To me it was take a pound or two of weight off the bike, or buy something that can help me get faster. So the $660 powertap wheel makes a lot more sense than some carbon cranks or weight weenie parts.

    http://www.competitivecyclist.com/ro...905.380.0.html
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by efficiency View Post
    It wasn't bicycling who did this study.

    http://www.nsca-jscr.org/pt/re/jscr/...195629!8091!-1

    Here is the abstract:
    Swart, J, Lamberts, RP, Derman, W, and Lambert, MI. Effects of high-intensity training by heart rate or power in well-trained cyclists. J Strength Cond Res 23(2): 619-625, 2009-The aim of this study was to determine whether the performance of cyclists after 4 weeks of high-intensity training improved similarly using either heart rate or power to prescribe training. Twenty-one well-trained men cyclists (age, 32 6 years; peak power output, 371 46 W) were randomly assigned to a power-based (GPOWER) or heart rate-based (GHEART) high-intensity training (HIT) group or a control group (GCONTROL). Training consisted of 8 repetitions of 4 minutes at either 80% of peak power output (GPOWER) or at the heart rate coinciding with 80% of peak power output (GHEART), with rest periods of 90 seconds. A 40-km time trial and V̇o2max test were performed before and after 8 training sessions. There were significant improvements (p < 0.05) in peak power output (GPOWER = 3.5%; GHEART = 5.0%) and 40-km time trial performance (GPOWER = 2.3%; GHEART = 2.1%) for both of the high-intensity groups. Although there were no significant differences between groups for these variables, when the data were analyzed using magnitude-based effects, the GHEART group showed greater probability of a beneficial effect for peak power output. The current general perception that prescribing training based only on power is more effective than prescribing training based on heart rate was not supported by the data from this study. Coaches who are unable to monitor progress frequently should prescribe training based on heart rate, when intervals are performed under stable conditions, because this may provide an additional advantage over prescribing training using power.


    Notes:
    They used trained subjects.
    Intervals were 8x4 minutes, 90 seconds rest
    The abstract does not explain how the 80% figures (GPOWER and GHEART) were determined.
    What would have been cool with the study was a group not using either. I wonder if just doing the training increased both groups and the computer did little.

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