SushiJoe

What are good ways to boost FTP? Riding shorter intervals above FTP? Or longer rides at FTP?

waterrockets 

Yeah, there are books on the subject

Start with some aerobic base building so the intervals coming in a couple months can be harder. Then do some SST to push FTP up, then go to shorter intervals and start pulling it up. Find what works with your training schedule and power profile.

I certainly think you can get bigger FTP gains from appropriate 90 minute rides than 5 hour rides. Recovery is just as important as stress, and long miles require more recovery to actually get any stronger. You need some long rides if you have long races, but you really only need one long ride/week to make it work.

SushiJoe

That's actually about spot on with what I'm doing. Last week was an 8 hour week for example. 1 long ride, 1 medium ride and the rest was a mixture of recovery days and harder [short'ish] interval days. I even tried some Tabatas for the first time. fwiw, long for me is 3 hrs.

I've been reading a lot about 2x20 to increase FTP as well. But it makes most sense that "it just depends."

fishmel

Sounds like you were just more tired going into this race. I did the Elkhorn stage race as a cat4 last year (won the GC) then 2 weeks later went to do the Cascade Classic as a Cat 3. I fell apart at Cascade ( and I felt like I could hang with better part of the field). I barely took anytime off as I wanted to race all the local stuff as a Cat 3 in those couple weeks, needless to say I shouldn't have. I hate taking time off the bike for recovery, but as you get into these tougher, more competitive races it seems to be necessary.

For your size/weight you FTP and 5min power very good for racing in the 3s.

mattm

i'm learning a lot just by reading this thread. cool.

umd

Most of the time when I was put under pressure was on the climb or sprinting out of the bottom corner or the long flat stretch to the start/finish. We were often pretty strung out there. On the two preceeding laps before I was dropped I was gapped and had to chase back on.

It's kind of screwey... it goes down a little descet, through a chicane that you can pretty much streaight-line (but it narrows the field), then a sharp right/left chicane that you have to turn for but can keep a lot of momentum. For the first few laps I was able to keep good momentum but the last two times (including the one where I was popped) I got held up by the guy in front of me slowing down and had to jump harder to keep up with the rest of the field.

I was able to get up the climbs with the field without "dangling", although it hurt more and more each time through. For all but the last lap up I was able to even gain position at times. The last time up I stayed with the others I was with but we were all stretched a little thin.

I did not pedal the descents. Any gaps on the descent was poor descending technique.

I never felt like I didn't have an adequate gear. I'd have to look at my data again (I don't have it with me at the moment) but I'm pretty sure I remember I was at least 85rpm up the climbs, at least while I was still with the pack.

Sounds about right. It was always super-strung-out on the long flat section.

My CTL was about 130 and my TSB was around +10 on Thursday. I'd have to check and see what it was Saturday morning.

jonestr

What are CTL, TSB, and ATL?

I am guessing they are not the control key, technical service bulletin, or Atlanta.

Apus^2

chronic training load, training stress balance, and acute training load.

https://home.trainingpeaks.com/articl...ent-chart.aspx

umd

I think this must be a trick question. Nobody said anything about ATL so you must already know

Acute

jonestr

Waterrockets mentioned it earlier.

Apus^2

Dang it. You got to it before I changed it.

umd

waterrockets 

So, we have a position and cornering technique problem here. Too far back, causing you to be too far from the leaders out of the corner or over the climb, then you're losing distance on the corner or just after it.

Given your power numbers and your TSB, I'm not buying any fitness limitations here.

Limiter: position. You should be far enough up that the guy in front of you isn't dying.

Another demonstration that fitness isn't the problem.

Strung out is fine for a non-technical course, but if it's twisty and bumpy, you have got to stay up front unless you're confident that the accelerations aren't going to hurt you. There are tailgunning techniques to mitigate this, but it doesn't sound like you're there yet. I can shoot the poop with friends at the back of a 28mph crit and move up when I want, but I've got a lot of experience at managing the back of the accordion w/out slowing much.

Yeah, your bag of excuses is missing some items

It looks like more experience is the answer. Get position. Learn to maintain position. CDR has many posts about this stuff, no need to re-write these great works. Corner efficiently, downshift before you enter. Anticipate surges and always nurture the speed you're carrying.

This is good though. Cat 3 is where you learn to race really well with Cat 4 power, while you're building up for Cat 2 power.

nycphotography

Interesting read.

I think I might have found a few very subtle clues as to why I blew up on 3/15 in the Cat5's in Central Park. Considering that my LT was 200w when I started training in Jan, and is probably around 225w now... I think it might be... that 5 MINUTES at 269w on the first lap with those little 385w for 1 minute and 301w for 2 minutes parts thrown in on lap 2. Oh, that and the 250w for 10m part that ends with the 385w 1 minute climb up Harlem Hill ending basically right at the point where I popped.

No wonder. I didn't find matches, I found a house fire.


First season racing (only two races so far) and first season really training. So we'll see how many watts come later.



Entire workout (227 watts):
Duration: 50:39 (1:01:02)
Work: 687 kJ
TSS: 130.1 (intensity factor 1.245)
Norm Power: 251

Peak 20s (498 watts):
Heart Rate: 178 186 181 bpm

Peak 30s (452 watts):
Heart Rate: 178 189 183 bpm

Peak 1min (385 watts):
Heart Rate: 173 190 183 bpm

Peak 2min (301 watts):
Heart Rate: 173 191 184 bpm

Peak 5min (269 watts):
Heart Rate: 166 189 178 bpm

Peak 10min (250 watts):
Heart Rate: 173 192 182 bpm

Peak 20min (239 watts):
Heart Rate: 166 192 181 bpm

Peak 30min (234 watts):
Heart Rate: 166 192 178 bpm

umd

It wasn't so much an accordian as it was just trying to close the gaps from the descent. I think it all really comes down to that. On the third lap it was a "hot spot sprint" for sprint jersey points and time bonuses and so I was doing 29-30mph down the straight trying to catch on without any shelter.

Yep, that's about it.

NomadVW 

https://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/03/matchfinder.html

waterrockets 

That's pretty cool. Easy to do too. Thanks.

One thing though: he was talking about determining match burns during a race, like you could figure it out on the bike. I'm just mis-reading, I suppose.

EDIT: here are some crits, pretty cool. Fewer and fainter matches at ToNB allowed me to burn a couple books of matches at the end.

umd

Good stuff

umd

No, I was looking for examples of post-race power file analysis.

waterrockets 

No, not you, the article author (Alex Simmons)

umd

I read it as post-race analysis, not in-race. He presented it as an alternative analysis method from the fast find in WKO.

Edit: no comment on my pretty chart? I'll do some for some other races later

waterrockets 

Yeah, it's not a big deal, but he said "It’s about a method to quickly identify when, during a race, you “burnt a match”."

Ambiguous.

From your chart, you clearly burned too many matches too brightly until you were dropped. These W^4 charts do make it crystal clear.

umd

Ah, I see. I read that as when during the race the matches were burned, not identifying burning the match while in the race.

Very clear

ridethecliche

Umd, I'm not sure if this is your problem as well, but I find it really difficult to get the 'perfect' draft spot when there's a single placeline going on. I have to make sure that I have it or I get into trouble.

I've been working on that...

waterrockets 

Ok, here's a "got dropped" example. It looks much tougher than the crits above. This was a position problem, causing me to bridge three groups, burn a long match with a bright spot, followed by a really bright match, with very little recovery. Then I popped. I still had a lot left in the tank, but I overcooked it and dropped myself trying to make up for the bad position. (this is from Belterra Saturday)