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  1. #1
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    Automatic upgrades?

    What mechanism is in place for enforcing automatic upgrades? There's a racer in my area who is still racing in the 4s, even though according to his teammates he had more than enough points to upgrade last year. After podium-ing in the 2 races he's done this year, I'm sure he has over 30 points. My calculation is actually 37 points.

    He told one of my teammates that he "wants to win as many races as possible this year". He's strong enough to race and do well in the 3s, but apparently he has no intentions of moving up until he's bored of beating up on the cat 4 field.

    Should I email my regional director and let him know about this person's situation? I'm just want to make sure there's no sandbagging going on.

  2. #2
    . botto's Avatar
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  3. #3
    Village Idiot
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    Haha, this should be interesting.
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member seb1041's Avatar
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    Move to cat 3 you wont have to deal wih him anymore.
    "Racing is licking your opponent's plate clean before starting on your own"
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  5. #5
    cmh
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    Look at the bright side. Having that guy in your races makes it easy to decide which wheel to follow into the final sprint.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by seb1041 View Post
    Move to cat 3 you wont have to deal wih him anymore.
    I have every intention of moving to cat 3 as soon as possible. I have 16 points now, and will hopefully getting the rest of the required points within the next 2 weeks. I'm asking the question because I don't think it's fair to the rest of the cat 4 racers to have someone monopolizing their points. I feel like I beat up on the rest of the cat 4s this weekend, and I don't want other racers looking at me as a sandbagger. I just want to move up quickly so that other racers have a chance to get the points that I would be taking.

    After thinking more about the "automatic upgrade" terminology, I see now that the rule is more to protect racers against regional directors who won't upgrade them, rather than to protect racers against sandbaggers. The rule as I see it now really should be written as "30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade if the racer requests it".

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmh View Post
    Look at the bright side. Having that guy in your races makes it easy to decide which wheel to follow into the final sprint.
    Actually, in my first race this weekend, I dragged him around in a break of just the 2 of us and won the sprint, so it's not really a matter of figuring out who to follow into the sprint.

  8. #8
    Writin' stuff ZeCanon's Avatar
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    If he times it right and losses the points from 12 months ago, he won't ever be 'force' upgraded.

    That said, you guys should make it known that staying in a lower category just so you can win some more won't make him many friends.
    Velo Magazine/VeloNews.com tech guy get in touch or hit me on the tweeter @CaleyFretz

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
    If he times it right and losses the points from 12 months ago, he won't ever be 'force' upgraded.
    I realize that, but he was a cat 5 at this time last year, at least through mid May. That means that none of his points have had a chance to expire

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
    That said, you guys should make it known that staying in a lower category just so you can win some more won't make him many friends.
    Agreed.

    Have you ever known of anyone who was 'force' upgraded?

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    Senior Member MONGO!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightbulb View Post
    I realize that, but he was a cat 5 at this time last year, at least through mid May. That means that none of his points have had a chance to expire


    Agreed.

    Have you ever known of anyone who was 'force' upgraded?
    Yes, but it took more than a couple of races.

    fwiw, a guy I know was upgraded to the 3's after a few races and in his first race as a 3 caused a couple of crashes and broke his collar bone, due to lack of pack handling skills.

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    Senior Member SteelerHoo's Avatar
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    wasting YOUR time calculating HIS points, then tattling to the teacher?! LMFAO!

    go out and find a way to beat him and worry about yourself and let other racers worry about themselves. things will work themselves out naturally.
    Steeler football is 60 minutes!! - Mike Tomlin

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  12. #12
    Senior Member WCroadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerHoo View Post
    wasting YOUR time calculating HIS points, then tattling to the teacher?! LMFAO!

    go out and find a way to beat him and worry about yourself and let other racers worry about themselves. things will work themselves out naturally.
    Apparently he already beat him, read post 7.

    Is there some sort of a BAR or season long points competition he could be trying to win?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerHoo View Post
    wasting YOUR time calculating HIS points, then tattling to the teacher?! LMFAO!
    It took me about 30 seconds to calculate his points total, since his teammate told me that he had 25 points at the beginning of the season, and the 2 races this year added up to 12 points. I was one of his main competitors last year, but he concentrated on RRs and crits, and I did more TTs, hence the points discrepancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCroadie View Post
    Apparently he already beat him, read post 7.

    Is there some sort of a BAR or season long points competition he could be trying to win?
    I guess it's possible that he's trying to win the NYS Cup in Cat 4, but I really don't think that's it. He seems to have some overreaching obsession with winning. Which wouldn't be a problem if he was riding anywhere near his ability level.

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    Writin' stuff ZeCanon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightbulb View Post

    Have you ever known of anyone who was 'force' upgraded?
    Yeah I was force upgraded out of the 3's, but only because I racked up 20something points in one stage race, so I went from needing a few more points to having about 15 too many.
    Velo Magazine/VeloNews.com tech guy get in touch or hit me on the tweeter @CaleyFretz

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    why would anyone waste the energy worrying about this?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightbulb View Post
    I realize that, but he was a cat 5 at this time last year, at least through mid May.
    That means he's been a 4 for less than a season. Not like he's a career Cat 4. If he wants to get a little experience before upgrading I don't see an issue with it. And if he has the points for a forced upgrade, that's the District's rep's issue.

    It sounds like you're both going to be in the 3's at the same time. People have memories, no reason to make unecessary enemies.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    That means he's been a 4 for less than a season. Not like he's a career Cat 4. If he wants to get a little experience before upgrading I don't see an issue with it. And if he has the points for a forced upgrade, that's the District's rep's issue.

    It sounds like you're both going to be in the 3's at the same time. People have memories, no reason to make unecessary enemies.
    I'd say we're probably already enemies. I refer to him as my "arch-nemesis" to my teammates.

    It's hard to get experience riding in a pack if you're off the front all the time.

    It sounds like the general consensus is that I should just keep my mouth shut and let the other racers in the 4s complain if they have a problem with it.

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    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's annoying, but last year there were a couple Cat 3s that people were grumbling about because they didn't upgrade to Cat 2. We have a Cat 3 points competition here in TX, and if people were forced to upgrade when they consistently started performing well, the points competition would be meaningless.

    I just looked at those two other Cat 3s as my targets. I beat both of them in several races, and we all upgraded within a couple months of each other. Now it sounds like there are a couple new guys everyone is upset about.

    Just keep winning and killing it and let the other 4s worry about themselves.

  19. #19
    umd
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    I've known several people that were regarded as sandbagging even though the reality was that they did not have the points to upgrade. For example, get second in a crit with 30 guys and you don't get a whole lot of points. Win a stage race as a 4 and you get nothing. It's really easy to look like you need to be forced to upgrade and not really be there. Just because his teammates said he had 25 points doesn't mean he actually did.

    Also if he became a 4 in mid-may, it's almost may now so some of those may start expiring soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    That means he's been a 4 for less than a season. Not like he's a career Cat 4. If he wants to get a little experience before upgrading I don't see an issue with it. And if he has the points for a forced upgrade, that's the District's rep's issue.

    It sounds like you're both going to be in the 3's at the same time. People have memories, no reason to make unecessary enemies.
    +1. I'd probably upgrade given the chance but I found out quickly that upgrading too soon just means being completely unprepared for the next level.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    I've known several people that were regarded as sandbagging even though the reality was that they did not have the points to upgrade. For example, get second in a crit with 30 guys and you don't get a whole lot of points. Win a stage race as a 4 and you get nothing. It's really easy to look like you need to be forced to upgrade and not really be there. Just because his teammates said he had 25 points doesn't mean he actually did.

    Also if he became a 4 in mid-may, it's almost may now so some of those may start expiring soon.
    would you not get points for the individual stages of the race though?

  22. #22
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
    would you not get points for the individual stages of the race though?
    You can win a stage race by winning the TT with a large margin and placing well enough in the crit and RR to not get time gaps but not get any upgrade points either.

  23. #23
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Yeah, it's annoying, but last year there were a couple Cat 3s that people were grumbling about because they didn't upgrade to Cat 2. We have a Cat 3 points competition here in TX, and if people were forced to upgrade when they consistently started performing well, the points competition would be meaningless.

    I just looked at those two other Cat 3s as my targets. I beat both of them in several races, and we all upgraded within a couple months of each other. Now it sounds like there are a couple new guys everyone is upset about.

    Just keep winning and killing it and let the other 4s worry about themselves.
    I can appreciate a guy who is really good cat 3 not wanting to cat up. You are now racing against 1's and Pro's, unlike the 3s' where you only had 3's to compete against. As a 4 however if you are consistently killing it in the 4's then cat up. This TX cup thing is pretty lame to begin with, there are guys in front of me in the TX cup who I can beat handily but they race more than me so they have more points. The guy leading the TX cup in the 4's has said that he wants to win the points race, he wins just about every time out. I get the fact that he wants the jersey but really being the TX Cup cat 4 champion is kinda like winning the gold in the Special Olympics when you aren't handicapped.

  24. #24
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    I'm with the OP here, although the points total for his "nemesis" seems low. One Cat 3 boasted to me his season tally at fall crit (he won I think). He had won 20+ races, gotten second 20+ times, and then gotten 3rd etc more time than that. Just his wins and 2nds, if crits (he rarely does road races), would mean 20x7 + 20x5 = 240 points.

    He remained a 3.

    After maybe 5-8 years of this, a few national titles (couple time crit champion and multiple track titles), he was finally upgraded to a 2.

    Then he intentionally DNFed a bunch of races. By Memorial Day he was downgraded to a 3, where he went on a winning spree again. He'd repeat this for perhaps 4-5 more years. I saw him a consistent 2 for a couple years, but recently he was in a Cat 3 race again.

    It seems he's careful to select races that either don't report results to USAC or he does Masters races (which don't count towards upgrades it seems).

    I think there ought to be a few upgrade procedure changes:
    1. National Champion - Cat 1 or Cat 2, automatic, until 60 or 65+. I mention age because I've gotten totally killed in sprints by national champions who are in their 50s but still Cat 3s, and I consider myself a decent sprinter. Maybe Cat 1 until 40 years old, Cat 2 for 40-60 year olds.
    2. Count Masters races as Cat 3 races. Fields are considered Cat 3s minimum. Therefore there is no question on points for any Cat 4s or Cat 3s. However, if a rider wants to upgrade from 2 to 1, the individual rider's categories have to be calculated. Currently open Masters races are considered Cat 4 or 5 races, based on the fact that they don't count towards automatic upgrade points. There are some Cat 4s who regularly win difficult Masters races, beating Cat 1-2-3s, yet remain 4s.
    3. Make reporting race results mandatory to all race promoters, if only the top 6 places, along with field size.

    cdr

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