Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-28-09, 09:55 AM   #1
lightbulb
More than 60 watts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes:
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Automatic upgrades?

What mechanism is in place for enforcing automatic upgrades? There's a racer in my area who is still racing in the 4s, even though according to his teammates he had more than enough points to upgrade last year. After podium-ing in the 2 races he's done this year, I'm sure he has over 30 points. My calculation is actually 37 points.

He told one of my teammates that he "wants to win as many races as possible this year". He's strong enough to race and do well in the 3s, but apparently he has no intentions of moving up until he's bored of beating up on the cat 4 field.

Should I email my regional director and let him know about this person's situation? I'm just want to make sure there's no sandbagging going on.
lightbulb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:01 AM   #2
botto 
.
 
botto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 40,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
botto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:01 AM   #3
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Bikes:
Posts: 20,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Haha, this should be interesting.
ridethecliche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:10 AM   #4
seb1041
Senior Member
 
seb1041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Montreal
Bikes:
Posts: 399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Move to cat 3 you wont have to deal wih him anymore.
seb1041 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:18 AM   #5
cmh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Bikes:
Posts: 2,515
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Look at the bright side. Having that guy in your races makes it easy to decide which wheel to follow into the final sprint.
cmh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:21 AM   #6
lightbulb
More than 60 watts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes:
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by seb1041 View Post
Move to cat 3 you wont have to deal wih him anymore.
I have every intention of moving to cat 3 as soon as possible. I have 16 points now, and will hopefully getting the rest of the required points within the next 2 weeks. I'm asking the question because I don't think it's fair to the rest of the cat 4 racers to have someone monopolizing their points. I feel like I beat up on the rest of the cat 4s this weekend, and I don't want other racers looking at me as a sandbagger. I just want to move up quickly so that other racers have a chance to get the points that I would be taking.

After thinking more about the "automatic upgrade" terminology, I see now that the rule is more to protect racers against regional directors who won't upgrade them, rather than to protect racers against sandbaggers. The rule as I see it now really should be written as "30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade if the racer requests it".
lightbulb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:24 AM   #7
lightbulb
More than 60 watts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes:
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmh View Post
Look at the bright side. Having that guy in your races makes it easy to decide which wheel to follow into the final sprint.
Actually, in my first race this weekend, I dragged him around in a break of just the 2 of us and won the sprint, so it's not really a matter of figuring out who to follow into the sprint.
lightbulb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:33 AM   #8
ZeCanon
Writin' stuff
 
ZeCanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Boulder, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 3,782
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If he times it right and losses the points from 12 months ago, he won't ever be 'force' upgraded.

That said, you guys should make it known that staying in a lower category just so you can win some more won't make him many friends.
ZeCanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:42 AM   #9
lightbulb
More than 60 watts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes:
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
If he times it right and losses the points from 12 months ago, he won't ever be 'force' upgraded.
I realize that, but he was a cat 5 at this time last year, at least through mid May. That means that none of his points have had a chance to expire

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
That said, you guys should make it known that staying in a lower category just so you can win some more won't make him many friends.
Agreed.

Have you ever known of anyone who was 'force' upgraded?
lightbulb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 10:50 AM   #10
MONGO!
Senior Member
 
MONGO!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Bikes:
Posts: 4,279
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbulb View Post
I realize that, but he was a cat 5 at this time last year, at least through mid May. That means that none of his points have had a chance to expire


Agreed.

Have you ever known of anyone who was 'force' upgraded?
Yes, but it took more than a couple of races.

fwiw, a guy I know was upgraded to the 3's after a few races and in his first race as a 3 caused a couple of crashes and broke his collar bone, due to lack of pack handling skills.
MONGO! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 11:18 AM   #11
SteelerHoo
Senior Member
 
SteelerHoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northern California
Bikes:
Posts: 229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
wasting YOUR time calculating HIS points, then tattling to the teacher?! LMFAO!

go out and find a way to beat him and worry about yourself and let other racers worry about themselves. things will work themselves out naturally.
SteelerHoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 11:26 AM   #12
WCroadie
Senior Member
 
WCroadie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chester County, PA
Bikes: 2010 Trek Madone 5.5 CAAD9
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelerHoo View Post
wasting YOUR time calculating HIS points, then tattling to the teacher?! LMFAO!

go out and find a way to beat him and worry about yourself and let other racers worry about themselves. things will work themselves out naturally.
Apparently he already beat him, read post 7.

Is there some sort of a BAR or season long points competition he could be trying to win?
WCroadie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 11:42 AM   #13
lightbulb
More than 60 watts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes:
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelerHoo View Post
wasting YOUR time calculating HIS points, then tattling to the teacher?! LMFAO!
It took me about 30 seconds to calculate his points total, since his teammate told me that he had 25 points at the beginning of the season, and the 2 races this year added up to 12 points. I was one of his main competitors last year, but he concentrated on RRs and crits, and I did more TTs, hence the points discrepancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCroadie View Post
Apparently he already beat him, read post 7.

Is there some sort of a BAR or season long points competition he could be trying to win?
I guess it's possible that he's trying to win the NYS Cup in Cat 4, but I really don't think that's it. He seems to have some overreaching obsession with winning. Which wouldn't be a problem if he was riding anywhere near his ability level.
lightbulb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 11:43 AM   #14
ZeCanon
Writin' stuff
 
ZeCanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Boulder, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 3,782
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbulb View Post

Have you ever known of anyone who was 'force' upgraded?
Yeah I was force upgraded out of the 3's, but only because I racked up 20something points in one stage race, so I went from needing a few more points to having about 15 too many.
ZeCanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 11:45 AM   #15
MDcatV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 6,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
why would anyone waste the energy worrying about this?
MDcatV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 11:52 AM   #16
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,131
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbulb View Post
I realize that, but he was a cat 5 at this time last year, at least through mid May.
That means he's been a 4 for less than a season. Not like he's a career Cat 4. If he wants to get a little experience before upgrading I don't see an issue with it. And if he has the points for a forced upgrade, that's the District's rep's issue.

It sounds like you're both going to be in the 3's at the same time. People have memories, no reason to make unecessary enemies.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 12:07 PM   #17
lightbulb
More than 60 watts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes:
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
That means he's been a 4 for less than a season. Not like he's a career Cat 4. If he wants to get a little experience before upgrading I don't see an issue with it. And if he has the points for a forced upgrade, that's the District's rep's issue.

It sounds like you're both going to be in the 3's at the same time. People have memories, no reason to make unecessary enemies.
I'd say we're probably already enemies. I refer to him as my "arch-nemesis" to my teammates.

It's hard to get experience riding in a pack if you're off the front all the time.

It sounds like the general consensus is that I should just keep my mouth shut and let the other racers in the 4s complain if they have a problem with it.
lightbulb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 12:32 PM   #18
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Yeah, it's annoying, but last year there were a couple Cat 3s that people were grumbling about because they didn't upgrade to Cat 2. We have a Cat 3 points competition here in TX, and if people were forced to upgrade when they consistently started performing well, the points competition would be meaningless.

I just looked at those two other Cat 3s as my targets. I beat both of them in several races, and we all upgraded within a couple months of each other. Now it sounds like there are a couple new guys everyone is upset about.

Just keep winning and killing it and let the other 4s worry about themselves.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-09, 03:02 PM   #19
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT
Posts: 28,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've known several people that were regarded as sandbagging even though the reality was that they did not have the points to upgrade. For example, get second in a crit with 30 guys and you don't get a whole lot of points. Win a stage race as a 4 and you get nothing. It's really easy to look like you need to be forced to upgrade and not really be there. Just because his teammates said he had 25 points doesn't mean he actually did.

Also if he became a 4 in mid-may, it's almost may now so some of those may start expiring soon.
umd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-09, 10:17 AM   #20
currand
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
That means he's been a 4 for less than a season. Not like he's a career Cat 4. If he wants to get a little experience before upgrading I don't see an issue with it. And if he has the points for a forced upgrade, that's the District's rep's issue.

It sounds like you're both going to be in the 3's at the same time. People have memories, no reason to make unecessary enemies.
+1. I'd probably upgrade given the chance but I found out quickly that upgrading too soon just means being completely unprepared for the next level.
currand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-09, 10:26 AM   #21
Grumpy McTrumpy
gmt
 
Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Binghamton, NY
Bikes:
Posts: 12,452
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by umd View Post
I've known several people that were regarded as sandbagging even though the reality was that they did not have the points to upgrade. For example, get second in a crit with 30 guys and you don't get a whole lot of points. Win a stage race as a 4 and you get nothing. It's really easy to look like you need to be forced to upgrade and not really be there. Just because his teammates said he had 25 points doesn't mean he actually did.

Also if he became a 4 in mid-may, it's almost may now so some of those may start expiring soon.
would you not get points for the individual stages of the race though?
Grumpy McTrumpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-09, 10:32 AM   #22
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT
Posts: 28,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
would you not get points for the individual stages of the race though?
You can win a stage race by winning the TT with a large margin and placing well enough in the crit and RR to not get time gaps but not get any upgrade points either.
umd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-09, 10:53 AM   #23
El Diablo Rojo
Banned.
 
El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ATX, Ex So Cal
Bikes: Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
Posts: 11,058
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Yeah, it's annoying, but last year there were a couple Cat 3s that people were grumbling about because they didn't upgrade to Cat 2. We have a Cat 3 points competition here in TX, and if people were forced to upgrade when they consistently started performing well, the points competition would be meaningless.

I just looked at those two other Cat 3s as my targets. I beat both of them in several races, and we all upgraded within a couple months of each other. Now it sounds like there are a couple new guys everyone is upset about.

Just keep winning and killing it and let the other 4s worry about themselves.
I can appreciate a guy who is really good cat 3 not wanting to cat up. You are now racing against 1's and Pro's, unlike the 3s' where you only had 3's to compete against. As a 4 however if you are consistently killing it in the 4's then cat up. This TX cup thing is pretty lame to begin with, there are guys in front of me in the TX cup who I can beat handily but they race more than me so they have more points. The guy leading the TX cup in the 4's has said that he wants to win the points race, he wins just about every time out. I get the fact that he wants the jersey but really being the TX Cup cat 4 champion is kinda like winning the gold in the Special Olympics when you aren't handicapped.
El Diablo Rojo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-09, 12:58 PM   #24
carpediemracing
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Bikes: Tsunami Bikes
Posts: 14,579
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
I'm with the OP here, although the points total for his "nemesis" seems low. One Cat 3 boasted to me his season tally at fall crit (he won I think). He had won 20+ races, gotten second 20+ times, and then gotten 3rd etc more time than that. Just his wins and 2nds, if crits (he rarely does road races), would mean 20x7 + 20x5 = 240 points.

He remained a 3.

After maybe 5-8 years of this, a few national titles (couple time crit champion and multiple track titles), he was finally upgraded to a 2.

Then he intentionally DNFed a bunch of races. By Memorial Day he was downgraded to a 3, where he went on a winning spree again. He'd repeat this for perhaps 4-5 more years. I saw him a consistent 2 for a couple years, but recently he was in a Cat 3 race again.

It seems he's careful to select races that either don't report results to USAC or he does Masters races (which don't count towards upgrades it seems).

I think there ought to be a few upgrade procedure changes:
1. National Champion - Cat 1 or Cat 2, automatic, until 60 or 65+. I mention age because I've gotten totally killed in sprints by national champions who are in their 50s but still Cat 3s, and I consider myself a decent sprinter. Maybe Cat 1 until 40 years old, Cat 2 for 40-60 year olds.
2. Count Masters races as Cat 3 races. Fields are considered Cat 3s minimum. Therefore there is no question on points for any Cat 4s or Cat 3s. However, if a rider wants to upgrade from 2 to 1, the individual rider's categories have to be calculated. Currently open Masters races are considered Cat 4 or 5 races, based on the fact that they don't count towards automatic upgrade points. There are some Cat 4s who regularly win difficult Masters races, beating Cat 1-2-3s, yet remain 4s.
3. Make reporting race results mandatory to all race promoters, if only the top 6 places, along with field size.

cdr
carpediemracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:06 PM.