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  1. #1
    Village Idiot
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    Question about types of training (I.e. Nomad/umd Vs. WR)

    All my workouts in times past had been 2-3 hr solo rides where I ended up with an IF of .93 or higher. I'd go hard, I'd sprint and I'd come home pretty beat. I did 2-3 of these a week with a group ride or race thrown into the mix. The rest of the days (3-4), I'd be off the bike unless I could get in an hour hard ride in the hills or such. Weekly total 6-8 weeks, but I was doing very well for myself in the spring.

    Now my coach is having me ride 12-15 hours a week, with most of the ride at or under aerobic threshold and then the business end of the ride is LT intervals/whatever in the midst of this aerobic threshold work.

    I'm going to ask my coach about this when I see him next, but what's the difference in adaptations and such with this kind of training.

    Is the first batch more geared towards crits/shorter events, and the longer rides more towards building long term fitness and longer distance road/stage races?
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    Your coach has you doing lots of SST workouts. With the intensity in check you can put in more hours during the week and manage fatigue. Those that put in 6-8 hours a week normally hit it pretty hard with lots of L4-L6 workouts. They need the rest for recovery.

    Ive tried both schools of thought and found my sweet spot to be around 13 hours a week but both theories have worked for me so I do a mix of both...... Its really hard to get your CTL up with only 6-8 hours a week and I need my CTL around 80-90 before I show any kind of form.
    Please remember that all statements unless quoted, are strictly my opinion of what happened. That there are as many opinions as there are spectators attending. I just choose to publish mine on this forum. And would NEVER intend to purposely hurt or discredit any other cyclist.... With that said... HTFU!

  3. #3
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Yeah, the way I train, I have no business in a P/1/2 road race, but I'm salivating at the thought of my next crit.

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    Knowing's half the battle SushiJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Yeah, the way I train, I have no business in a P/1/2 road race, but I'm salivating at the thought of my next crit.
    Whatever you are doing seems to be working.

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    I could be wrong but it seems to me that the difference is that your previous method of training is very limited in delivering sound results for fitness but perhaps some results in strength. I would not divide the two methods up into yours being good for crits and others for longer road races. Base fitness is the foundation on which any strength training must take root if you are to be a successful racer. If you've got the strength, but lack the fitness to use it at the end of a 45 minute crit, road race, TT, or whatever, what's the use?

  6. #6
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinn View Post
    I could be wrong but it seems to me that the difference is that your previous method of training is very limited in delivering sound results for fitness but perhaps some results in strength. I would not divide the two methods up into yours being good for crits and others for longer road races. Base fitness is the foundation on which any strength training must take root if you are to be a successful racer. If you've got the strength, but lack the fitness to use it at the end of a 45 minute crit, road race, TT, or whatever, what's the use?

    You are definitely NOT wrong.
    Good answer.

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    Senior Member powpow's Avatar
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    Noob question: define SST?

    Just trying to get all of the lingo down. Thx.

  8. #8
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powpow View Post
    Noob question: define SST?

    Just trying to get all of the lingo down. Thx.


    http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspottraining.html

    http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspotpartdeux.html

  9. #9
    Senior Member powpow's Avatar
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    ^^Muchas gracias^^

  10. #10
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
    Now my coach is having me ride 12-15 hours a week, with most of the ride at or under aerobic threshold and then the business end of the ride is LT intervals/whatever in the midst of this aerobic threshold work.

    I'm going to ask my coach about this when I see him next, but what's the difference in adaptations and such with this kind of training.

    Is the first batch more geared towards crits/shorter events, and the longer rides more towards building long term fitness and longer distance road/stage races?
    I say let your coach worry about that. You have to trust that your coach knows better than yourself.

    If you can’t let go of your own training ideologies you will end up “adjusting” or skipping prescribed workouts, and your training will remain haphazard.

    I’m not saying follow the coach blindly, just foster communication and let the coach make the calls.

  11. #11
    umd
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    I've been a bit all over the place this season... I was doing a lot of mega-base in November, December then SST-type workouts in January and into February and was seeing good FTP gains, brought in more focused intensity with some VO2 or shorter intervals, more stoachastic group rides, as well as started racing in February. I raced 2-3x every weekend through March, my short-duration power went up and my threshold power somewhat stagnated and my endurance tanked, then my threshold followed. I wasn't riding nearly as much as last year but I think I came in with a lower base as well as probably overreached a bit, as well as just hit a peak and my form slid backwards a bit.

    It's hard to say exactly what is working or not working for me right now though because my fitness right now is far above what it was this time last year. I was able to go out and hang on no problem in a cat 3 crit no problem (and 1/3 of a P/1/2/3 crit with some difficulty) the day after a 400 TSS day, then put in 200TSS yesterday and was riding very strong at today's "hammerfest" lunch ride.

    My body seems to not respond very quickly to workouts, and my biggest gains last year were when I stopped racing as much, put in tons of volume, then tapered down once a month to race. I'm going to try that again and see if the results are repeatable...

  12. #12
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    UMD,
    keep the hours up every week, even if you are racing 3x per
    stamina and resistance is bought through time, just slow down a bit on certain days

    then when you get back into a block without races, up the SST again and refresh the head

  13. #13
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
    UMD,
    keep the hours up every week, even if you are racing 3x per
    stamina and resistance is bought through time, just slow down a bit on certain days

    then when you get back into a block without races, up the SST again and refresh the head
    Thanks, I've found I respond best for "tapering" when I keep the volume up but drop the intensity. I've tried it both ways and if I try to rest too much I have a little more top end but I have less endurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    I say let your coach worry about that. You have to trust that your coach knows better than yourself.

    If you can’t let go of your own training ideologies you will end up “adjusting” or skipping prescribed workouts, and your training will remain haphazard.

    I’m not saying follow the coach blindly, just foster communication and let the coach make the calls.
    Yeah, I'm going to talk to him about stuff, but I'm not planning on adjusting anything but my saddle height
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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    Senior Member tanhalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    ...and was riding very strong at today's "hammerfest" lunch ride...
    It only seemed strong because you were beating up on a poor 46 year old who had to be off the bike for over 5 weeks

  16. #16
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanhalt View Post
    It only seemed strong because you were beating up on a poor 46 year old who had to be off the bike for over 5 weeks
    Hey, you weren't the only one there...

    It sure wasn't as fast without Gary on his TT bike

    But I'm surprised nobody came around me the entire Cathedral Oaks stretch to the high school

    I felt good for the sprint but got boxed in to the curb

  17. #17
    Senior Member tanhalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    Hey, you weren't the only one there...

    It sure wasn't as fast without Gary on his TT bike
    That's Mr. "2009 SCNCA Masters 30-34 TT Champion" Gary to you...

    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    But I'm surprised nobody came around me the entire Cathedral Oaks stretch to the high school
    Well...it was you, then I forget who, then Marco and then me right behind you. If those 2 guys in front of me weren't pulling through, I sure wasn't going to...I was already tired Neither Marco or I have been putting in very many miles lately There were a lot of guys behind me as well who easily could have come through but didn't...not sure what was up with that.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    I've been a bit all over the place this season... I was doing a lot of mega-base in November, December then SST-type workouts in January and into February and was seeing good FTP gains, brought in more focused intensity with some VO2 or shorter intervals, more stoachastic group rides, as well as started racing in February. I raced 2-3x every weekend through March, my short-duration power went up and my threshold power somewhat stagnated and my endurance tanked, then my threshold followed. I wasn't riding nearly as much as last year but I think I came in with a lower base as well as probably overreached a bit, as well as just hit a peak and my form slid backwards a bit.

    It's hard to say exactly what is working or not working for me right now though because my fitness right now is far above what it was this time last year. I was able to go out and hang on no problem in a cat 3 crit no problem (and 1/3 of a P/1/2/3 crit with some difficulty) the day after a 400 TSS day, then put in 200TSS yesterday and was riding very strong at today's "hammerfest" lunch ride.

    My body seems to not respond very quickly to workouts, and my biggest gains last year were when I stopped racing as much, put in tons of volume, then tapered down once a month to race. I'm going to try that again and see if the results are repeatable...
    Stochastic... group rides... really? how does that work?

  19. #19
    Senior Member tanhalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skipmcne View Post
    Stochastic... group rides... really? how does that work?
    Simple. A group of ~10-20 of us all meet at lunch time on Tuesday and proceed to attempt to rip each others legs off in the span of ~35-40min. Sometimes known as "Breakaway training", but more commonly known as "The Hammerfest".

    The thing about the course we take is that there are 2 turnarounds. So, even if you get dropped...you still have a chance to hop back on and punish yourself some more

    Besides, you can make ANY group ride more "stochastic" if you feel like it

  20. #20
    CAT = 5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanhalt View Post
    Simple. A group of ~10-20 of us all meet at lunch time on Tuesday and proceed to attempt to rip each others legs off in the span of ~35-40min. Sometimes known as "Breakaway training", but more commonly known as "The Hammerfest".

    The thing about the course we take is that there are 2 turnarounds. So, even if you get dropped...you still have a chance to hop back on and punish yourself some more

    Besides, you can make ANY group ride more "stochastic" if you feel like it
    "of or pertaining to a process involving a randomly determined sequence of observations each of which is considered as a sample of one element from a probability distribution."
    -
    Dictionary.com Unabridged
    Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

    Hm. Not EXACTLY the word I'd use to mean what I think you want it to mean. But I get your point.

  21. #21
    umd
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    It is commonly used to describe the "on/off" nature of crits.

    It works for our hammerfest because it is so short it behaves similarly to a crit and the distribution of the on/off is somewhat random because it is caused by each other.

    Tom, I was also thinking of the wednesday suffervals although it's the hills that make it brutal not each other...

    Maybe not the best word, but I didn't make it up

  22. #22
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    No one and I mean no one does so much with so little training as WR. If he ever became a training monk he'd tear the legs off everyone in TX...much talent in this one says Obi Wan...

  23. #23
    Knowing's half the battle SushiJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo View Post
    No one and I mean no one does so much with so little training as WR. If he ever became a training monk he'd tear the legs off everyone in TX...much talent in this one says Obi Wan...
    I agree with this.

  24. #24
    RustyTainte substructure's Avatar
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    No one and I mean no one does so little with so much training as me.

    just sayin'

  25. #25
    Knowing's half the battle SushiJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substructure View Post
    No one and I mean no one does so little with so much training as me.

    just sayin'
    Shall we compare notes?

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