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  1. #1
    3 seconds ColorChange's Avatar
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    2x20 Typical Power/Heart Rate Numbers?

    OK, I still have a question if maybe my ftp isn't understated.

    Here is last night's 20 minute SST workout, on my road bike, no wind, pretty flat. I have my ftp set at 260 watts.

    Peak 20 minute:
    TSS: 29.3
    Normalized Power: 244 (94%)
    Average Power: 238 (92%)
    Cadence: 97
    Speed: 21.2
    VI: 1.02
    HR avg: 150 bpm, (84% max HR)

    These workouts are not particularly hard. I would have expected higher exertion. What does your HR average (% of max please) for your workouts?

  2. #2
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    SST is not supposed to be hard.

    And 2x20's are meant to be done right at, if not above, FTP.

    SST is something you should be able to ride for at least an hour.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  3. #3
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    310 / 177-181
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  4. #4
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    310 / 177-181
    did you read the OP?
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  5. #5
    3 seconds ColorChange's Avatar
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    Sorry, you're right bdcheung, I'm getting my workout signals crossed. That's why I was confused.

    OK, so for SST I can easily do this pace for over an hour at 84% max HR.

    For 2x20's you're at ftp or slightly higher? That will put my HR at around 90% max. Sound right?
    Last edited by ColorChange; 05-29-09 at 07:59 AM.

  6. #6
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    I rarely do 2x20's anymore, favoring 1x40 or 2x30 more. For the 1x40, I will shoot for negative splits - each segment of 10 minutes I will try to do at a higher average wattage than the preceding segment.

    For the 2x30, I'll do the first just below FTP (95-98%) and the second at or above FTP. The 2x30 really hurts.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  7. #7
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    I was taught that SST is to "push" the FTP up, where 2x20's are to "pull" it up. Therefore, I do my SST at ~90-94% and my 2x20's as hard as I can go, which ends up being like 10% over my FTP. I may be wrong, but it's starting to come around for the little time I've been back on the bike.

    HR fits inline with that for me. At SST, I'm maybe 85% LT and above it on the 2x20's.
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  8. #8
    One speed: FAST ! fordfasterr's Avatar
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    no power #'s only HR ... LTHR = 185 bpm.
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  9. #9
    carbon is too light procrit's Avatar
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    20' intervals (for me) are done at 100-105% of my FTP (310w-330w). 85-90% of my max heart rate.
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    carbon is too light procrit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cslone View Post
    I was taught that SST is to "push" the FTP up, where 2x20's are to "pull" it up. Therefore, I do my SST at ~90-94% and my 2x20's as hard as I can go, which ends up being like 10% over my FTP. I may be wrong, but it's starting to come around for the little time I've been back on the bike.

    HR fits inline with that for me. At SST, I'm maybe 85% LT and above it on the 2x20's.
    Your FTP is set too low. Your hardest 2x20 efforts should be ~5% over your FTP.
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  11. #11
    RustyTainte substructure's Avatar
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    2x20s @ 105% will throttle you. You should be making deals with the devil to stop them early. At least that's what I feel like. (of course, I'm on the trainer and I pretty much beg to get off that thing early all the time.)

  12. #12
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorChange View Post
    Sorry, you're right bdcheung, I'm getting my workout signals crossed. That's why I was confused.

    OK, so for SST I can easily do this pace for over an hour at 84% max HR.

    For 2x20's you're at ftp or slightly higher? That will put my HR at around 90% max. Sound right?
    % of max HR is fairly meaningless. If you want to look at HR you should be looking at % of LT HR not max. How are you determining your max anyway?

  13. #13
    Edificating dmotoguy's Avatar
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    are you guys sure you should be doing 2x20's over your threshold(on a regular basis)?
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  14. #14
    RustyTainte substructure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmotoguy View Post
    are you guys sure you should be doing 2x20's over your threshold(on a regular basis)?
    I'm not.

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    I like doing my 2x20s at approximately 103.5219874%. it gets tough to hold steady wattage on rolling terrain, but I'm getting better at pacing it. if I get up to 103.5219875% ftp, I just cant seem to finish the 2nd rep.

    this usually ends up being approximately 94.328794% of my lthr and 87.41463% of my max hr.

    on a perceived exertion scale of 1 to 10, these are estimated at 7.30184.

  16. #16
    The mods changed this... damocles1's Avatar
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    2x20 @ 100-110% (360-370w) I usually do the first 15 minutes of each @ 100% and do the last 5 minutes as hard as I can. I'm praying for the sweet silence of death @ the end of each.
    1x40 are ramp up intervals. Start @ 85% and bump it up 5% every 5 minutes, trying to end over 120%.
    For SST, I sit it between 92-95% and just ride it out...can do 60 minutes+ pretty easily in this range.
    Max HR 187
    LT HR 181

    Edit: I agree with Subby and Merlin as well...these aren't done very often. Only when the two fast group rides are rained out or I miss them for other reasons. Also done to jumpstart after a break...
    If you're racing regularly, and relatively fit, you really don't need to kill yourself will long, heavy intervals all the time. A guy in our group does 1X30 twice a week and he's fried right now! He's a strong 3/Masters racer and got shelled like a pecan on Tuesday night...
    Last edited by damocles1; 05-29-09 at 08:46 AM.

  17. #17
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    lol

  18. #18
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmotoguy View Post
    are you guys sure you should be doing 2x20's over your threshold(on a regular basis)?

    The CTS school of thought, steady states are just below FTP and are done at 8/10ths perceived effort.

    You get almost all the same effect as balls/walls, at much less psychological cost.

    Occassionally 2x 20's are done with all you got in the program. (time trial intervals at 9/10ths perceived effort)
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  19. #19
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cslone View Post
    I was taught that SST is to "push" the FTP up, where 2x20's are to "pull" it up.
    That is the normal way.

    I wonder is you could "push"/"pull" five minute power by training with a combination of 5x1's all-out (or WRI's) and 2x20's ridden at SST levels.
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  20. #20
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by procrit View Post
    Your FTP is set too low. Your hardest 2x20 efforts should be ~5% over your FTP.
    Well, everybody is different and trust me, I'd love my FTP to be 5% higher, but it's not per my testing. My FTP has been tested in a 60' TT, NP in a 1/2/3 crit and the 20' x .95 equation and it always comes out within about 5 watts. I can just hammer it for 20' and push it harder I guess. My last 2x20's were right at 9% over my FTP.
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  21. #21
    umd
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    Chris, if you can do 109% of yout FTP for 20 minutes then your FTP is obviously set to less than 95% of your 20 minute power...

  22. #22
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    FTP = .95*20min is just a rule of thumb. FTP = steady state power for one hour. Period. Different people are different, and the correlation between 20 minute time and FTP will be different for different people. The 95% rule is just an average over many different tested athletes.
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  23. #23
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    FTP = .95*20min is just a rule of thumb. FTP = steady state power for one hour. Period. Different people are different, and the correlation between 20 minute time and FTP will be different for different people. The 95% rule is just an average over many different tested athletes.
    I understand but in the post above he mentioned using the 95% rule of thumb, that's what I was replying to.

  24. #24
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's actually more like 91-92% in my case on most days. I'm so used to typing the .95 multiplier out of habit.
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  25. #25
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    The CTS school of thought, steady states are just below FTP and are done at 8/10ths perceived effort.

    You get almost all the same effect as balls/walls, at much less psychological cost.

    Occassionally 2x 20's are done with all you got in the program. (time trial intervals at 9/10ths perceived effort)
    What if you're a psycho and actually enjoy digging yourself into the pain cave?
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