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  1. #1
    rider of small bicycles geneman's Avatar
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    I need stiffer wheels

    Every time I sprint in my "race" wheels, I'm reminded of just how whippy they are.

    They are Mike Garcia specials:

    Front rim: Nimble spider (28H)
    Front hub: speedcific
    Front spokes: DT revo

    Rear rim: Velocity aerohead (28H)
    Rear hub: DT Swiss 240
    Rear spokes: DT revo

    Total weight without skewers - ~1450g

    I lost a race yesterday by 0.04 seconds and the wheels were whipping all over the place at the end. They aren't out of true.

    I need stiffer wheels that are comparably light. I'm not especially concerned about them being aero or carbon. Any recs?

  2. #2
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    *Cough*ksyriums*cough*

  3. #3
    Senior Member VA_Esquire's Avatar
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    *cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*
    Cat 6--*----------Cat 5
    Quote Originally Posted by thump55 View Post
    I use the elbow flick to let my wife know it's time for her to make me a samich.

  4. #4
    rider of small bicycles geneman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VA_Esquire View Post
    *cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*
    The problem ain't the power ... the problem is putting the power down.


    Phatman --> I assume you mean ES? Got any experience in winding them up?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by VA_Esquire View Post
    *cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*
    *cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

    check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

    Before you blow some money on new wheels, check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.

  6. #6
    rider of small bicycles geneman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crispy010 View Post
    *cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

    check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

    Before you blow some money on new wheels, check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.

    Thanks ... I'll take a look at the tension and bearings.

    And for the record, I had one of my better throws and fell just short of pulling a "Barlevav."


  7. #7
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  8. #8
    i ride a bicycle
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    FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    There, that's better.

    Mac

  9. #9
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sac02 View Post
    FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    There, that's better.

    Mac
    So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  10. #10
    i ride a bicycle
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    A stiffer wheel comes from:

    More spokes
    Thicker spokes
    Stiffer rim
    Higher spoke bracing angle (i.e. wider flange spacing, spoke heads in)
    Stiffer hub

    I feel I'm forgetting something on my list, someone help me out.

    Mac

  11. #11
    Balls exhibitx's Avatar
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    lacing pattern(s)

    i don't know about "thicker spokes", as i'm sure there's some pretty bad thick spokes, but bladed spokes help

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
    So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all.
    OK , on the off chance that your wheelbuilder totally forgot to tighten your spokes at all, then yes, increasing spoke tension will stiffen your wheel.

    BUT, if your spokes are tensioned anywhere near properly - that is, they aren't so loose that they're going into "negative tension" (compression), then HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL. Increasing your spoke tension from say 80kg to 100kg to 180kg will do nothing to stiffen the wheel. Nothing. It will increase your chances of cracking the rim near the spoke hole though.

    Mac

  13. #13
    Senior Member
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    One thing that makes for stiff wheels is deep rims. Your rims are 19mm. Stiff wheels use at least 30mm rims. That is mild. 40-60mm is considered average for racing.
    You're just trying to start an argument to show how smart you are.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by exhibitx View Post
    lacing pattern(s)

    i don't know about "thicker spokes", as i'm sure there's some pretty bad thick spokes, but bladed spokes help
    Thicker spokes = larger cross sectional area = lower stress = less strain (elongation) = stiffer. Assuming same applied load

    Mac
    Last edited by sac02; 06-07-09 at 07:33 PM.

  15. #15
    rider of small bicycles geneman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
    One thing that makes for stiff wheels is deep rims. Your rims are 19mm. Stiff wheels use at least 30mm rims. That is mild. 40-60mm is considered average for racing.
    Not always true. My 32 hole open pros are stiff as hell.

  16. #16
    ..... Jynx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crispy010 View Post
    *cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

    check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

    Before you blow some money on new wheels,
    check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
    If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals.


    Quote Originally Posted by sac02 View Post
    FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

    There, that's better.

    Mac
    + infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
    So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all.


    Come on, seriously? There is no need for an attitude especially when you are clearly wrong.


  17. #17
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    First question is what's your budget?

    All things flow from there.

    I found those nobiums to be flexy too.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals.
    plenty of us "mere mortals" weigh a lot more than most pros and some of us, judging by the cav is god thread, can put out more power than the best of them. I doubt many heavy pro sprinters are on uber-light wheels anyway.

    On the other hand while a wheel flexing may be unpleasant how slow is it really as long as you're not fighting to control the bike? During the end of your sprint you ideally shouldn't be putting anywhere near maximum force on your pedals anyway. You'll likely get more power in a lower gear spinning faster and your bike will flex less too.

    Intervals even if we pretend they won't make you .04s stronger will help you ignore the flex and will help you judge what gear to sprint in better.

    Still if your dt revs are annoying you and you can afford it why not get something that will be both more pleasant to ride on and more durable.

  19. #19
    rider of small bicycles geneman's Avatar
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    Under $1K. Should be do-able for alloy and that weight.

    When it's flat I just race my op's.

  20. #20
    rider of small bicycles geneman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtret7 View Post
    Still if your dt revs are annoying you and you can afford it why not get something that will be both more pleasant to ride on and more durable.
    Thanks.
    I didn't say they weren't pleasent or durable. In fact, they're both those things and light to boot. They're one of the reasons I was sprinting for the win out of a group of 5 instead of as a field. However, I'm not happy with 2nd.

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    Well you're complaining about them whipping around so clearly they aren't all that pleasant to race on. Give yourself some credit, it was your legs not moderately light non-aero wheels that got and kept you in the break.

  22. #22
    rider of small bicycles geneman's Avatar
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    OK ladies ... I still need stiffer, yet moderately light wheels. Any ideas?

  23. #23
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    After technique, tire pressure (and tire selection) will make a difference with regards to traction etc, pressure more than wheels, especially when it comes to "tires skipping around". To me it sounds like slightly better technique would give you the most return for the buck. Stiffer rims really help, same with wide flanges, as mentioned above.

    Having slightly less pressure would help keep your tires down, but, honestly, you'll have some tire movement regardless. Check out some slo-mo replays of Petacchi and Co.

    Your wheels are about as light as my race wheels, and they're pretty light. Why lighter? Lighter gets you a slightly better jump, but overall I'd aim for more aero, esp in the rims. 19mm is not aero at all, and you'll pick up mph if you get a taller rimmed wheel, say 58mm+. They use less spokes because they're stronger/stiffer rims. I figure my aero wheels are worth up 4-6 mph at my best, 3-4 mph right now.

    cdr

  24. #24
    Type 1 Racer rydaddy's Avatar
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    +1 to everything Sac02 is saying.

    If the OP wants stiffer wheels, a simple solution would be to swap those noodle Revo's out for straight 14 guage spokes. Revolutions are not known for making stiff wheels.

    Flange spacing is important, as is number of spokes and thickness. Rim depth has little to do with lateral stiffness of a wheel. Spoke tension, even less so.

    Edit: Ok I'm wrong about rim depth. Deeper usually does mean stiffer.
    Last edited by rydaddy; 06-08-09 at 10:43 AM.

  25. #25
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    To address the actual question posed: Be patient on Ebay and score a set of Fulcrum Racing Zeros for under $1K. Or go slightly heavier (1500ish) and get a set of Racing Ones for $700-800. Both are stiff as heck.

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