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Old 06-07-09, 05:59 PM   #1
geneman
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I need stiffer wheels

Every time I sprint in my "race" wheels, I'm reminded of just how whippy they are.

They are Mike Garcia specials:

Front rim: Nimble spider (28H)
Front hub: speedcific
Front spokes: DT revo

Rear rim: Velocity aerohead (28H)
Rear hub: DT Swiss 240
Rear spokes: DT revo

Total weight without skewers - ~1450g

I lost a race yesterday by 0.04 seconds and the wheels were whipping all over the place at the end. They aren't out of true.

I need stiffer wheels that are comparably light. I'm not especially concerned about them being aero or carbon. Any recs?
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Old 06-07-09, 06:07 PM   #2
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*Cough*ksyriums*cough*
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Old 06-07-09, 06:19 PM   #3
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*cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*
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Old 06-07-09, 06:25 PM   #4
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*cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*
The problem ain't the power ... the problem is putting the power down.


Phatman --> I assume you mean ES? Got any experience in winding them up?
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Old 06-07-09, 06:26 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by VA_Esquire View Post
*cough*intervals*hack/wheeze/snarl/cough*
*cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

Before you blow some money on new wheels, check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.
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Old 06-07-09, 06:53 PM   #6
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*cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

Before you blow some money on new wheels, check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.

Thanks ... I'll take a look at the tension and bearings.

And for the record, I had one of my better throws and fell just short of pulling a "Barlevav."

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Old 06-07-09, 06:56 PM   #7
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If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals.
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Old 06-07-09, 07:15 PM   #8
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FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

There, that's better.

Mac
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Old 06-07-09, 07:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac02 View Post
FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

There, that's better.

Mac
So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all.
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Old 06-07-09, 07:18 PM   #10
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A stiffer wheel comes from:

More spokes
Thicker spokes
Stiffer rim
Higher spoke bracing angle (i.e. wider flange spacing, spoke heads in)
Stiffer hub

I feel I'm forgetting something on my list, someone help me out.

Mac
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Old 06-07-09, 07:22 PM   #11
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lacing pattern(s)

i don't know about "thicker spokes", as i'm sure there's some pretty bad thick spokes, but bladed spokes help
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Old 06-07-09, 07:25 PM   #12
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So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all.
OK , on the off chance that your wheelbuilder totally forgot to tighten your spokes at all, then yes, increasing spoke tension will stiffen your wheel.

BUT, if your spokes are tensioned anywhere near properly - that is, they aren't so loose that they're going into "negative tension" (compression), then HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL. Increasing your spoke tension from say 80kg to 100kg to 180kg will do nothing to stiffen the wheel. Nothing. It will increase your chances of cracking the rim near the spoke hole though.

Mac
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Old 06-07-09, 07:26 PM   #13
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One thing that makes for stiff wheels is deep rims. Your rims are 19mm. Stiff wheels use at least 30mm rims. That is mild. 40-60mm is considered average for racing.
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Old 06-07-09, 07:26 PM   #14
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lacing pattern(s)

i don't know about "thicker spokes", as i'm sure there's some pretty bad thick spokes, but bladed spokes help
Thicker spokes = larger cross sectional area = lower stress = less strain (elongation) = stiffer. Assuming same applied load

Mac

Last edited by sac02; 06-07-09 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 06-07-09, 07:35 PM   #15
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One thing that makes for stiff wheels is deep rims. Your rims are 19mm. Stiff wheels use at least 30mm rims. That is mild. 40-60mm is considered average for racing.
Not always true. My 32 hole open pros are stiff as hell.
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Old 06-07-09, 07:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by crispy010 View Post
*cough/wheeze* bike throw*cough/wheeze/gag*

check out neuvations. I just got a pair of R28 SL5s and they're about the same weight as your current wheels. Standing up on hills and sprinting hasn't produced any whippy feelings.

Before you blow some money on new wheels,
check your bearings and spoke tension. If there's play in the bearings, it could feel the same as "flimsy" wheels. Low spoke tension could also make a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sac02 View Post
FOR THE LAST TIME: (ok, not really, people will apparently never comprehend this)

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

Now say it with me three times, boys and girls:

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

HIGHER SPOKE TENSION DOES NOT EQUAL A STIFFER WHEEL.

There, that's better.

Mac
+ infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
So properly tensioning spokes won't make a wheel any stiffer? Hmm, makes you wonder why wheelbuilders tighten them at all.


Come on, seriously? There is no need for an attitude especially when you are clearly wrong.

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Old 06-07-09, 07:55 PM   #17
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First question is what's your budget?

All things flow from there.

I found those nobiums to be flexy too.
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Old 06-07-09, 07:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete
If pros can sprint the uber-light wheels, I assure you that your wheels aren't "whipping all over the place" provided the bearings are properly preloaded and the spokes are tensioned. There's not a single well-built wheel that should be as flexy as you describe under us mere mortals.
plenty of us "mere mortals" weigh a lot more than most pros and some of us, judging by the cav is god thread, can put out more power than the best of them. I doubt many heavy pro sprinters are on uber-light wheels anyway.

On the other hand while a wheel flexing may be unpleasant how slow is it really as long as you're not fighting to control the bike? During the end of your sprint you ideally shouldn't be putting anywhere near maximum force on your pedals anyway. You'll likely get more power in a lower gear spinning faster and your bike will flex less too.

Intervals even if we pretend they won't make you .04s stronger will help you ignore the flex and will help you judge what gear to sprint in better.

Still if your dt revs are annoying you and you can afford it why not get something that will be both more pleasant to ride on and more durable.
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Old 06-07-09, 07:57 PM   #19
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Under $1K. Should be do-able for alloy and that weight.

When it's flat I just race my op's.
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Old 06-07-09, 08:01 PM   #20
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Still if your dt revs are annoying you and you can afford it why not get something that will be both more pleasant to ride on and more durable.
Thanks.
I didn't say they weren't pleasent or durable. In fact, they're both those things and light to boot. They're one of the reasons I was sprinting for the win out of a group of 5 instead of as a field. However, I'm not happy with 2nd.
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Old 06-07-09, 08:09 PM   #21
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Well you're complaining about them whipping around so clearly they aren't all that pleasant to race on. Give yourself some credit, it was your legs not moderately light non-aero wheels that got and kept you in the break.
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Old 06-07-09, 08:33 PM   #22
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OK ladies ... I still need stiffer, yet moderately light wheels. Any ideas?
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Old 06-08-09, 09:41 AM   #23
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After technique, tire pressure (and tire selection) will make a difference with regards to traction etc, pressure more than wheels, especially when it comes to "tires skipping around". To me it sounds like slightly better technique would give you the most return for the buck. Stiffer rims really help, same with wide flanges, as mentioned above.

Having slightly less pressure would help keep your tires down, but, honestly, you'll have some tire movement regardless. Check out some slo-mo replays of Petacchi and Co.

Your wheels are about as light as my race wheels, and they're pretty light. Why lighter? Lighter gets you a slightly better jump, but overall I'd aim for more aero, esp in the rims. 19mm is not aero at all, and you'll pick up mph if you get a taller rimmed wheel, say 58mm+. They use less spokes because they're stronger/stiffer rims. I figure my aero wheels are worth up 4-6 mph at my best, 3-4 mph right now.

cdr
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Old 06-08-09, 10:31 AM   #24
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+1 to everything Sac02 is saying.

If the OP wants stiffer wheels, a simple solution would be to swap those noodle Revo's out for straight 14 guage spokes. Revolutions are not known for making stiff wheels.

Flange spacing is important, as is number of spokes and thickness. Rim depth has little to do with lateral stiffness of a wheel. Spoke tension, even less so.

Edit: Ok I'm wrong about rim depth. Deeper usually does mean stiffer.

Last edited by rydaddy; 06-08-09 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 06-08-09, 10:34 AM   #25
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To address the actual question posed: Be patient on Ebay and score a set of Fulcrum Racing Zeros for under $1K. Or go slightly heavier (1500ish) and get a set of Racing Ones for $700-800. Both are stiff as heck.
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