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  1. #1
    Member pac819's Avatar
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    club racing question ( C GRADE )

    my club hosted a road race last weekend and to cut a long story short i split the group by sitting up, then chased the leaders down who were all apart of my club and then i was dropped back to the chassing group.
    there were 4 of us again from the same club and we started to organise ourselves to chase them(the leading 3) down but we had a fresh member of another club with us ?
    i said dont chase them as we have a 1,2 and 3 for the race, let him do the work and chase.
    this is the question?
    at club level do you think this is appropriate or should you just ride your own race ?
    its happened to me in the past with lead out's and being boxed in, but now i feel a little guilty.

  2. #2
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Moving to racing. To the OP, posting this in the racing subforum will yield MUCH better discussion.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  3. #3
    bf is my facebook. ljrichar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
    Moving to racing. To the OP, posting this in the racing subforum will yield MUCH better discussion.
    I'm not so sure this time. I'm having trouble deciphering his comments. What is a club level C race?

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    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljrichar View Post
    I'm not so sure this time. I'm having trouble deciphering his comments. What is a club level C race?
    I'm assuming it's a training race of some kind. At any rate, the guys/gals in here will have a better shot than the main forum.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  5. #5
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    Many countries outside the USA use A, B, C instead of cats 1-5.

    The OP's tactics were correct. Doesn't matter what level of racing it is.

  6. #6
    Senior Member DanielS's Avatar
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    Yeah - C-grade is like Cat 3 I guess.

    Tactics were probably right. Except that I've never known of people from the same club working together to that extent. In fact, as far as I know its against the rule. Everyone from my club are friends and we all pretty much try to smash each other in races...

  7. #7
    Member pac819's Avatar
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    ok, ill try the general discussion as i cant see the racing thread.we have aphabetical grading at club levels levels here A to E. thanks

  8. #8
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    You've got 3 people in the break, and 4 in your chase group, with one guy from another team in that chase group.

    The only way it would be acceptable for your group to chase, and tow up the other team would be if there was a high probability that the break gets caught, unless you get up there to help. Otherwise, you cannot tow the other team up to the break.

    In your situation, there are several things you could do: One, try to send one rider at time up to bridge, giving you 4 strong in the break, but only doing so if you get away clean from the other rider, Two, dropping back to the field, and blocking at the front of the peleton to assure the break stays away.

    Three, take turns escorting the other team's rider out the back of your chase group, and then bridge up to the break without dragging the other team up.

    Which option is the best depends mostly on the likelyhood that your 3 teammates can stay away.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  9. #9
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    In races other than specific teamís events, visible collusion is very seriously frowned on at club events (here in Victoria) though it happens all the time.

  10. #10
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
    In races other than specific teamís events, visible collusion is very seriously frowned on at club events (here in Victoria) though it happens all the time.
    I'm not sure I follow your post. Are you saying that in race with participants from multiple teams (clubs) that it is frowned upon to work for the benefit of your teammates?

    If that's true,then it's totally different here.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member DanielS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    I'm not sure I follow your post. Are you saying that in race with participants from multiple teams (clubs) that it is frowned upon to work for the benefit of your teammates?

    If that's true,then it's totally different here.
    Clubs != Teams

    But yeah, its actually against the rules to collude with anyone, be they clubmates or otherwise! Unless the rules for that race specifically allow team tactics to occur. Amateur cycling, for the most part, is an individual sport in Australia. In A-grade (i.e. Cat 1) there are some teams that will work together but no one does anything about it.

    In South Australia (my state) we have a separate teams series for crit racing. Its pretty much an A-grade only affair. All of the lower grades are still meant to be individual.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielS View Post
    Clubs != Teams

    But yeah, its actually against the rules to collude with anyone, be they clubmates or otherwise! Unless the rules for that race specifically allow team tactics to occur. Amateur cycling, for the most part, is an individual sport in Australia. In A-grade (i.e. Cat 1) there are some teams that will work together but no one does anything about it.

    In South Australia (my state) we have a separate teams series for crit racing. Its pretty much an A-grade only affair. All of the lower grades are still meant to be individual.
    Do you like that it is more individual in Australia? I've always enjoyed the teamwork aspect of cycling. Two weeks ago, at a local practice crit, my team was able to dominate the B (slower) training race by working really well together. I find it odd that you would join a club if you are racing as an individual.

  13. #13
    Member pac819's Avatar
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    thank you all,
    its what i thought its an individual race and i think i have been led the wrong way ( but not on purpose i hope ). I'll ask the president of the club and not go off other's members ( at coffee ) in the club and i'll appologise to that rider in white the next race see him.
    thanks again
    the forum really is good
    and thanks dr pete for putting the post in the correct forum

  14. #14
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    In Australia there are cycling clubs, lots of which have been around for 100 or more years. They usually have racing every single weekend all year long. Crits, road racing, tt, hill climbs etc. You must also be afilliated with a cycling club to hold a UCI/Aust cycling federation domestic race licence. to race any international event you also have to hold an equivelent UCI internatioanl licence.

    We have inter club challenges, regional, state and national racing as well as open or elite racing.

    club racing is usually graded A - E grade, some open racing will often have a "b" & "c" grade as well or races are handicapped and you ride off scratch.

    At large race carnivals, often it will be elite/open division then perhaps masters division racing.

    Track racing can be different again.

    Just remember that A grade is the top grade and at any club weekend racing you could line up with a world champion junior track rider through to perhaps a ex-pro or world cup level master 2 /3 /4 and lots of everything else in between, strong club A graders, full time (more 99 % part time) aussie pro's or euro pro's home for a break from racing internationally.

    it's not uncommon for the fast women, like rochelle gilmore to be racing in B or C grade (perhaps winning C grade), so yeah unless it is a majour race the women race against the men.
    Last edited by woodduck; 06-09-09 at 12:49 AM.

  15. #15
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    oh and there is team tactics in every race as well, weather it's noticed/allowed/encouraged or not.

  16. #16
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    ^
    So why do they even bother to disallow team tactics in some races? They should just remove the team restriction from all races.

  17. #17
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielS View Post
    Clubs != Teams

    But yeah, its actually against the rules to collude with anyone, be they clubmates or otherwise! Unless the rules for that race specifically allow team tactics to occur. Amateur cycling, for the most part, is an individual sport in Australia. In A-grade (i.e. Cat 1) there are some teams that will work together but no one does anything about it.

    In South Australia (my state) we have a separate teams series for crit racing. Its pretty much an A-grade only affair. All of the lower grades are still meant to be individual.
    To me, the absence of team tactics would take a significant element out of the whole sport. Some of the most fun I've had racing has been in working team tactics to help the team win.

    If team tactics aren't allowed, why even have teams?

    Heck, if you can't have team tactics, why not just ban drafting also, and make everything a time trial?
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  18. #18
    Geosynchronous Falconeer recursive's Avatar
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    What? Team work is against the rules? Which rules? Somehow I'm skeptical. Can anyone cite an official rule?

    I don't believe it at all. Why do teams even exist?
    Bring the pain.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodduck View Post
    oh and there is team tactics in every race as well, weather it's noticed/allowed/encouraged or not.

    I couldn't quote any rule against team work as I have never heard of it before.

    I was making a generalisation when i wrote "noticed/allowed/encouraged"

    of course there are teams in Australia, but you join a cycling club in order to get a race licence. Cycling teams are usually made up of part time or full time riders. Over here they are more or less trade teams, built up from different club members.

    I think in the USA it is the only place that only has teams and not cycling clubs and trade teams.

    for example Grahame Browne is a memeber of the same cycling club as I am, but obviously he is on the rabobank team.

  20. #20
    Geosynchronous Falconeer recursive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodduck View Post
    I couldn't quote any rule against team work as I have never heard of it before.

    I was making a generalisation when i wrote "noticed/allowed/encouraged"

    of course there are teams in Australia, but you join a cycling club in order to get a race licence. Cycling teams are usually made up of part time or full time riders. Over here they are more or less trade teams, built up from different club members.

    I think in the USA it is the only place that only has teams and not cycling clubs and trade teams.

    for example Grahame Browne is a memeber of the same cycling club as I am, but obviously he is on the rabobank team.
    Ok, so under your scheme, what is the purpose of a "cycling club"? What function do they serve?
    Bring the pain.

  21. #21
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    first of all, you have to be a member of a cycling club to obtain a UCI domestic race licence to race in Australia.

    The club that I am a member of has a crit track which is less thana 10 minute ride from my house. It's been there since the roads got too busy to race on in the 1970's, it is a tough course. they hold racing there every weelend of the year. Another club hosts a series on Tuesday nights through summer as well as there being opens and one day elite races.

    there is also a club house built which has drinks, simple food etc, stores all the club clothing bikes, childrens bikes track bikes etc etc anything to do with the club.

    they have development programs for kids aged from about 6 onwards. crit, road racing and track racing.

    The club will organise social weekends away for touring (or training rides for state and national events)

    We have track racing training each week and a racing series during summer.

    you go through the club system, become sponsered and then ride for a trade team, but you still retain membership with a cycling club in Australia.

    Although no where as popular as football and cricket in Australia, cycling racing is a real grass roots sport in Australia and has a very strong following. The club system has been around for over 100 years (my club is 104 years old or something) and Aussies have been racing in Europe since about the 1920's.

    so the clubs are things of tradition also. It's just the way the system is.

  22. #22
    Member pac819's Avatar
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    follow up

    i spoke to the president of the club and was told open club tactics are not illegal however are not encouraged.They(tactics) can discourage other racers who may not be in a club to be discouraged from returning to race as they have no one in the field to support them.It is more individual racing honing your skills and developing your tactics at the lower grades. However if you chose to help one of your mates it is not illegal.

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