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Old 01-04-16, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
how's egg whites vs yolks and is there some ratio of one to another that seems better? I typically eat 4 whites and 1 yolk.
are you trying to avoid fat for any particular reason? seems to be a common reason people choose whites over yolks.

personally, i don't get enough fat in my daily diet, so i just eat the whole egg. and the point made about about nutritional qualities inherent in the yolks may be something for you to consider.
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Old 01-04-16, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
...peanut butter is 25% protein, which is right up there with lean meat. Of course it's also 50% fat, but that's what makes it so yummy!
are you looking at protein as a % of calories, % by weight, or ...? fat, by weight, is more calorically-dense, as you probably know.

added sugar (in many store-bought peanut butter options) is another reason.

i'm a huge fan of peanut butter, but other types of nuts are considered better for you/better sources of protein. attention to serving sizes is super important when it comes to nuts...and nut butters. so easy to tank a diet that way when one is attempting to get lean.
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Old 01-04-16, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack
I have been grooving on this product lately in recovery drinks:



70 calories per serving with 8 grams of protein.

You can make some pretty tasty smoothies with this. Peanut Chocolate. Peanut Banana Date. Amongst my current favorites.
you can also use that product (or any number of similar ones) + added water as a direct replacement for peanut butter...i.e., not just powder in a smoothie. definitely isn't as satisfying as peanut butter (taste), but that also means you'll eat a bunch less of it.
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Old 01-04-16, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
I recently read that your body can only absorb like 10-20g of protein per hour or something like that and the rest is effectively wasted, so best to spread it out as much as possible.
there is truth to this--it's definitely possible to eat more protein than one can process at a time.

spreading out your protein will also affect satiety throughout a day and can lead to eating less (or less over-eating).

i worked with someone on nutrition who responded really well to the notion that eating too much of a good thing can actually be wasting food if their body is not going to take full advantage of it. this person would never let food spoil or would not throw food away...but they didn't realize that huge amounts of protein in one sitting can amount to throwing the food away. was an interesting perspective.
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Old 01-04-16, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
are you trying to avoid fat for any particular reason? seems to be a common reason people choose whites over yolks.

personally, i don't get enough fat in my daily diet, so i just eat the whole egg. and the point made about about nutritional qualities inherent in the yolks may be something for you to consider.

I get plenty of fat in my diet, and I eat a lot of eggs. I've always tried to 'avoid' fat where possible I since I tend to eat about 4 hard boiled eggs with breakfast I don't like to eat all the yolks.
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Old 01-04-16, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
i'm a huge fan of peanut butter, but other types of nuts are considered better for you/better sources of protein. attention to serving sizes is super important when it comes to nuts...and nut butters. so easy to tank a diet that way when one is attempting to get lean.
i would be so skinny if i didn't eat absurd amounts of nuts.

in fact, that's exactly what i'm focusing on for my current weight loss goals.
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Old 01-04-16, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
there is truth to this--it's definitely possible to eat more protein than one can process at a time.

spreading out your protein will also affect satiety throughout a day and can lead to eating less (or less over-eating).

i worked with someone on nutrition who responded really well to the notion that eating too much of a good thing can actually be wasting food if their body is not going to take full advantage of it. this person would never let food spoil or would not throw food away...but they didn't realize that huge amounts of protein in one sitting can amount to throwing the food away. was an interesting perspective.
I think it is possible to waste expensive protein by taking too much at once. However, I don't think a huge protein bolus is equivalent to "throwing away food." Once the protein requirements are met and/or the rate of protein uptake is maxed out the excess protein is deaminated or consumed by gut flora. So you still get most of the calories just in the form of metabolic byproducts and bacteria crap (which may or may not be good for you depending on your microbiome).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deamination
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Old 01-04-16, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic
However, I don't think a huge protein bolus is equivalent to "throwing away food."
I don't, either, but it made a connection in one person's brain to help them with portion control. It was meant to be an analogy, not a direct comparison.

Everyone respond to different diet/nutrition cues, it seems.
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Old 01-04-16, 10:26 PM
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Old 01-04-16, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
there is truth to this--it's definitely possible to eat more protein than one can process at a time.

spreading out your protein will also affect satiety throughout a day and can lead to eating less (or less over-eating).

i worked with someone on nutrition who responded really well to the notion that eating too much of a good thing can actually be wasting food if their body is not going to take full advantage of it. this person would never let food spoil or would not throw food away...but they didn't realize that huge amounts of protein in one sitting can amount to throwing the food away. was an interesting perspective.
The comments about the max rate of protein absorption made me google the concept, because I've been trying to figure out the optimal protein and carb doses for my recovery drinks, in the context of being in the process of losing weight so every calorie counts. The best I've been able to come up with is a dose of 0.4 gm/kg BW protein and 0.8 gm/kg BW carb. So that's what I have in my recovery drinks, which works out for me to ~25 gm protein and ~50 gm carb, a substantial number of calories for me given my overall daily budget. I know it could be argued that more carbs relative to protein would be even better, but I'm reluctant to add more calories and the relatively higher protein dose seems to really help with hunger after interval workouts.

So of course the post about max rate of protein absorption was of concern. Reading a bit on that, however, it sounds like you actually do pretty much digest/absorb your entire protein dose (for the most part- more so if in liquid form and less so if there's fiber in the drink). Its just that if max protein absorption rate is 10 gm/hr, and you take in a dose of 25 gm all at once, it will take you a few hours to get it all digested/absorbed, not that protein consumed in excess of 10 gm will be wasted. Maybe absorption rate is important if you care when those amino acids/protein reaches your muscles relative to your workout. But not that you're missing part of the dose.

However, none of which is the point of this post, I just thought that stuff was interesting. My question is: does anyone have any good insight into what the optimal protein and carb doses are for a recovery drink? Not the ratio of one to the other, but the ideal absolute amounts of each on a gm/kg BW basis? I'm not sure by any means that I have my doses right. Things are going fine overall with both the cycling and the weight loss. But I always wonder if I could do better.
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Old 01-04-16, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack

However, none of which is the point of this post, I just thought that stuff was interesting. My question is: does anyone have any good insight into what the optimal protein and carb doses are for a recovery drink? Not the ratio of one to the other, but the ideal absolute amounts of each on a gm/kg BW basis? I'm not sure by any means that I have my doses right. Things are going fine overall with both the cycling and the weight loss. But I always wonder if I could do better.
if you look at the science it will tell you nutrient timing doesn't really matter as long as your daily macros are where they should be. The notion of a window of time for optimal absorption pails in comparison to actually getting the right mix of protein/carbs/fat.
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Old 01-04-16, 11:31 PM
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Timing before the race matters.
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Old 01-04-16, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by misterwaterfall
if you look at the science it will tell you nutrient timing doesn't really matter as long as your daily macros are where they should be. The notion of a window of time for optimal absorption pails in comparison to actually getting the right mix of protein/carbs/fat.
Well, I'm not really forced to make a choice between a recovery drink and getting the macronutrient mix right the rest of the day. I do my workouts fasted very early in the am and a recovery drink is about all I have time for before making my train. So the recovery drink is my 6:30 am first breakfast, it works well logistically. The rest of my formula is pretty straight forward: 100 grams protein per day, 1350 cal/day plus substantially more credited back for calories burned cycling based on power meter data. Then on account of the calorie-restriction, try to maximize nutrition in everything I eat. It works out every day to 50% calories from carbs, and 25% each from fat & protein, including the recovery drink.

The actual question was: what dose for protein and carb in the recovery drink, gives that I'm going to have it as my practical breakfast anyway?
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Old 01-05-16, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack
The actual question was: what dose for protein and carb in the recovery drink, gives that I'm going to have it as my practical breakfast anyway?
I have no advice for dosage but have read (Friel) that as we age, we need proportionately more protein and less carbohydrate.
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Old 01-05-16, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by revchuck
I have no advice for dosage but have read (Friel) that as we age, we need proportionately more protein and less carbohydrate.
In a recovery drink or overall?
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Old 01-05-16, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic
I think it is possible to waste expensive protein by taking too much at once. However, I don't think a huge protein bolus is equivalent to "throwing away food." Once the protein requirements are met and/or the rate of protein uptake is maxed out the excess protein is deaminated or consumed by gut flora. So you still get most of the calories just in the form of metabolic byproducts and bacteria crap (which may or may not be good for you depending on your microbiome).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deamination
Ugh human body is so cool! Thanks for info.
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Old 01-05-16, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by revchuck
I have no advice for dosage but have read (Friel) that as we age, we need proportionately more protein and less carbohydrate.
any evidence/studies to support that? i've been under the impression that for the most part anyone who eats a "clean" (i.e. mostly whole foods) diet is probably getting plenty of protein.
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Old 01-05-16, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack

The actual question was: what dose for protein and carb in the recovery drink, gives that I'm going to have it as my practical breakfast anyway?
Here are a few links for you. Looks like you want 0.8 to 1.2g/Kg Carb and 0.2 to 0.4g/Kg Protein.

Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance. - PubMed - NCBI

Recovery from Cycling Exercise: Effects of Carbohydrate and Protein Beverages

Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures. - PubMed - NCBI
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Old 01-05-16, 11:14 AM
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Thanks, I will take a look. But basically it looks like I've got it right with my doses, considering that I'm trying to recover well with the minimum possible calories.

Mmm this morning's recovery drink was Raspberry Greek-Yogurt. Very tasty.
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Old 01-05-16, 11:22 AM
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Haha. the second article you link is the only one that looks at different proportions of macronutrients in recovery drinks and it concludes that it doesn't really matter. And sadly, none of the studies look at any kind of performance outcome, which quite honestly is the only thing that matters. Personally, I'd draw no conclusion from any of those articles as to what I should drink, but I'll bet what I'm doing ultimately derives from studies like this.

Good thing my recovery drinks are tasty and that I'd drink them even if I weren't trying to recover.
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Old 01-05-16, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack
Haha. the second article you link is the only one that looks at different proportions of macronutrients in recovery drinks and it concludes that it doesn't really matter. And sadly, none of the studies look at any kind of performance outcome, which quite honestly is the only thing that matters. Personally, I'd draw no conclusion from any of those articles as to what I should drink, but I'll bet what I'm doing ultimately derives from studies like this.

Good thing my recovery drinks are tasty and that I'd drink them even if I weren't trying to recover.
I knew the studies weren't exactly what you were looking for. I just figured the dosages used in those papers would be a good starting point. As you noted, they were probably carefully chosen based on past work.
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Old 01-05-16, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mike868y
any evidence/studies to support that? i've been under the impression that for the most part anyone who eats a "clean" (i.e. mostly whole foods) diet is probably getting plenty of protein.
I'm still moving and that book - Fast After 50 - is somewhere in my stuff at the new house. My questionable memory tells me that it was an opinion, admittedly without external evidence.
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Old 01-06-16, 06:28 AM
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I'm old. That said, after each race, I had a recovery shake with about 35g of protein within an hour after the finish. It definitely helped with DOMS. My race weight was 65kg.
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Old 01-06-16, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by shovelhd
I'm old. That said, after each race, I had a recovery shake with about 35g of protein within an hour after the finish. It definitely helped with DOMS. My race weight was 65kg.
Nothing after workouts?

It sounds like you were not concerned about carb content?

There may well be a different ideal for different cyclists, based on age, gender, and variability in physiology. It's interesting when you look at a lot of these studies to see what their endpoint is. They might compare a drink to no drink and then look two hours later at which drink resulted in greater glycogen deposition in muscle. But in a post-workout scenario, the amt of glycogen 24 hours later would be more relevant. But even that does not speak to any kind of performance-outcome, for example was the drink group of cyclists better able to complete the next workout than the non-drink group of cyclists?

There are plenty of smart people in the world of cycling and I'll bet there are more relevant studies out there. It would just take a lit search that I don't really have time for to make sense of it. And quite honestly, someone smart in the field of exercise physiology would do a far better job than me weeding out the flawed papers and focusing on the gems.
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Old 01-06-16, 07:17 AM
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I personally have a hard time with recovery drinks that have a lot of carbs in them, my case is a little different than the majority of people here though... Certain kinds of carbs make my sugar go way high, so my "recovery" drink is typically just protein. 30-60 grams depending on the workout/race.
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