StefanG

I put this in the racing forum because I feel this is applicable to training for racing, but if moderators believe it should be in the regular road cycling forum, then please move it.

I started training with Power in December. Been doing lots of interval training, following Friel's training approach for the most part. I've been using WKO traininig peaks software to track training results. My zones look like this (btw, I didn't customize these zone min/max settings, I used the WKO defaults based on my FT of 230):

Anerobic Capacity 278 - on up
V02max 244 - 277
Threshold 209 - 243
Tempo 175 - 208
Endurance 129 - 174
Recovery 0 - 128

My best 20' interval time is 260. This would mean that I'm holding V02max for 20'. Is that possible or is it more likely that I need to revise my power zones? In other words, if I can hold a specific power for 20', does that mean i'm in "Threshold" and should extend my threshold zone to say 260 or 265? Or should I be able to hold V02max for 20+ minutes?

Thanks in advance for any valuable feedback.

ericm979

one of the ways to estimate FTP is to multiply 20 min power (your best recent) by .95.

StefanG

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I have a pretty good idea of what my FTP is. I've done a 60' best effort. Came in at 230. I haven't tested a full 60' in 6 weeks, so maybe its somewhere between 240 - 250, regardless, I'm still curious about the concept.

slim_77

I think ericm979 is suggesting that your FTP is not 230 if your 20' power is 260w. Instead it is 247. This places your 20' power in a logical relation to your FTP and Vo2 zones. vo2 would then be ~261-296watts.

your zones will move in relation to your FTP. As you get stronger, improve your FTP, everything else also changes.

edit: I forgot to say, good job--you're getting stronger!

carpediemracing 

Question - do you race?

I ask because my best ever 20 min test was 263w, and my two recent ones (over the winter) were 261 and 240-something (second test I felt pretty bad). I've never seen anyone claim to have the same power as me (me-centric way of saying it). Or, conversely, I've never seen anyone whose power claim matched my own numbers.

+1 on .95 x 20 min max
Doing a fully motivated 60 min test is very difficult. Personally 20 min is very difficult.

+1 on getting stronger

cdr

StefanG

Oh, that makes sense. So, in theory then you shouldn't be able to stay within your V02max zone for 20', its more likely your zones need to be adjusted.

StefanG

I did my first 2 races last year at age 39, getting into this late as keeping friends/co-players together year after year for team sports is too difficult.

The first was a beginner's crit (CAT 6 ), I finished 3rd, that got me hooked! However, the 2009 season was nearly over, so I entered a CAT 4/5 Road Race in September and finished 21 out of a field of 35. I've been training since October to get ready for the 2010 racing season as a CAT 5 of course. First race of season isn't until mid March in Georgia, very excited though.

My wife and I have our first child on the way due in late May, so I'm planning my first (and potentially only) peak in April. Planning for a short 2010 race season.

slim_77

I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure no.

biffstephens

retest you 60 min and see

grwoolf

I'm just a newbie who just started training with power, but I know my FTP would be much higher than 230 if I could do 20 minutes at 260 (which I can't).

I used the following test in the 'training with power' book and several people recommended it as a good test without having to do a full 60' time trail effort.

warmup
5 minute hard as possible to keep steady pace throughout
10 minutes at recovery pace
20 minute time trial (should be totally shot at the end)
recovery/cool down

Take your average power from the 20 minutes, subtract 5% and that's your FTP

My power was 240 for 20 minutes, so 228 ftp. That feels pretty accurate for me, I think I could do that for an hour if really pushing it.

I know I couldn't do 260 for 20 minutes, I was absolutely done with a 240 average for 20 minutes. I'd bet your FTP is a bit higher now (or your power curve is very different than mine).

Again, I'm no expert, but thought I'd chime in since my FTP was so similar.

MDcatV

VO2Max is generally something that can be held for 3 to 8 minutes, maybe a little longer, but not likely 20 minutes. i believe your ftp is underestimated. while FTP is defined as the max power you can maintain for 60 minutes, it's difficult to establish with certainty what that actually is without being in a competitive situation. so, your ftp testing methodology is the most correct way of doing it, BUT it is hard to mentally stay focused in a non competitive situation for 60 minutes, and it's also hard to do 60 mins. without interruptions like traffic, stop lights, or on the trainer because you arent moving, and pacing is key as you can really shoot your wad and end up cooked at 20 minutes. so, the 60 min. test often underestimates FTP, and i would believe it did in your situation. the 20 min max power x 0.95 tends to overstate things as there are anaerobic influences in your avg. power. normally i would advise to not be overly pedantic about whether it's 230, 240, or 247 for that matter, it's in the same ballpark, but if you're doing 20 min. intervals in a range that you should be tapped at approx. 8 minutes on the bottom of the zone, you should revise your # upward. you'll know when you're correct in the estimation of ftp by whether you can maintain intervals at the intended duration at the intended intensity.

slim_77

very good point.

MDcatV, do you also use HR along with PT data? I just started to use HR to get a better correlation between PE and PT data. I know there is not a 1:1 relationship, but I've been very curious to see how close my HR, PT, and PE are in actuality.

kudude

put it this way: a 60' FTP test can AT BEST estimate as high as your FTP. If ANYTHING is wrong - bad day, lack of motivation, stop sign, then it underestimates. the 20' isn't more reliable per se, it just happens to be more reliable in the real world. That and I remember dr.wjo making some comment about there essentially being no way he would ever do an hour at ftp unless it was a competitive TT. **** that **** for a training ride.

umd

One point I did not see mentioned (if it was, I'm sorry, I skimmed) is that the 20 min power * .95 is just kind of a rule of thumb and the actual multiplier really should depend on your anaerobic capacity. How do you determine that? Why another test of course! Search for information on the Monod method, or protocol, or something like that. There is an Excel spreadsheet where you take a short test for AC and a longer test and it calculates out the curve for you.

umd

It does not correlate particularly well. I stopped using my HR strap regularly, but recently I've been throwing it on because it's interesting to see recovery after hard efforts.

MDcatV

No, truth be told, I took off the HR strap before i started training with power. I was finding too much variability from day to day, and seeing too much drift (i.e. above intended hr zone) during longer efforts such as 15'+, and too little during shorter efforts. Resulting in pacing using PE already. The only real value I was seeing from HR data was how quickly it responded to input such as how quickly did it go up during the "on" and how quickly did it go down during the "off". Since "quickly" was rather subjective and required interpretation, I wasnt certain about the conclusions I was drawing. So, for better or worse, I stopped using it and havent replaced the batteries in the chest strap, so havent started using HR again.

Grumpy McTrumpy

there are multiple methods for figuring out your FTP

https://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/...adly-sins.html

personally, if I were in your position, I'd not be ready to make any concrete conclusions about FTP right now, since race season hasn't begun (and race motivation has something to do with it) but I would be leaning towards "splitting the difference" between your 230 and 247 calculations.

just my $.02 ( I am not an expert on this stuff )

merlinextraligh

+1 on the 20 minute x .95, and watching whether you can finish your intervals in the zones you've calculated (or conversely whether they seem too easy.)

Also take a look at your power graphs in WKO. After you have a decent number of files, you should be able to see a point where your power drops off significantly. This point is likely your FTP.

If that result gives you a significantly different result from your field test, you might want to do another field test.

merlinextraligh

As for using the HRM, I tend to not bother. However, I think there is some value in correlating HR and power. For example on a day where you're really sucking, and cannot hit the specified power, seeing what your HR is doing may give you some insight on whether its a motivation problem, as oppossed to a fatique or illness problem.

That said, I would always go with power over HR.

StefanG

Yep, that's kind of how I'm leaning. My 20' interval where I averaged 260w wasn't preceded with an effort to sufficiently tax the aerobic system. I don't believe I could hold 247 for a full 60'. I think my FT is probably somewhere between 235 and 240, so will update my FT to ~238 and let my zones readjust accordingly, which will put that 260w probably at very bottom range of V02max.

MDcatV

was your pm zeroed?

kudude

for some reason this doesn't even begin to work for me. After a whole month's worth of data, I have a SIGNIFICANT drop around 220W, but I can crank out 29XW for 20' all day long. I think it's more of a riding style on my part -- maybe my 'chill' pace is too chill.

badhat

so from this thread i'm getting that many/most of you who train with power DONT train w HR anymore?

i guess i always thought that power was supplemental, not a replacement.

interesting

merlinextraligh

If you're doing a lot of one particular type of intervals, or are in a base phase, that will throw it off.

But it tends to be a pretty good reality check as long as you're doing competitive rides or races and a mix of workouts.

For me, my most recent field test calculated to 322w and my power chart is very steady up to 320 watts and falls precipitously above 320 watts. That is with a month of races however.

The_Cretin

Well, HR can be replaced by rolling a dice while power data is actually usable.