CrimsonKarter21

+1

1.) Get into break
2.) Ride in break until either;
2a.) Break gains enough time on the rest of the field
2b.) Break starts getting disorganized
2c.) Break neard the finish
3.) ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK

Voodoo76

This, just surf close.

Dr WJ and Ex. I understand your gung ho sentiment and bravado. But if god gave you the sprint of a Cat 2 and the endurance of a 50 year old 5 or worse, well you do what you gotta do to scratch out some results. Not all of us are LT gods.

waterrockets 

I used to agree, but I'm doing much better racing like ZC these days: work myself into breaks where should be able to outsprint everyone in them. I've initiated winning breaks when there are 20 guys back in the pack who can out-tt me.

May not apply to Cat 4...

SteelerHoo

+1

Seems if you have the ability to more or less break the will of or break away from the field in every race, the field strength may not be commensurate with your fitness.

ldesfor1@ithaca

for a fatty like me, being in a break is in someways more efficient. I burn weaker matches on the climbs than if I were in the pack... sadly my sprint is trash.

Racer Ex 

I'll tell that to Gerlach and Martin in a couple of weeks.

Hey, if I had a real sprint I'd sit in more (well, maybe), but I'd at least roll through.

wanders

Is he back? Good luck to him.

You too, pops.

ft_critical

Thanks all some good tips. Here is why I asked:
Race A: work on the front too much I have been told by everyone (but I really enjoy helping to write the story of the race.)
Race B: there are two massively strong riders who break and win each week. All I want to do is stay at the front and get in the break with them. Last week one of them burned me off after 400m as he chased the break. But, I need to stay right at the front in the hope of catching his wheel. I am under no illusions these guys are in a different league to me (ex Euro-pro, ex national TT champ.) But, the longer I can stay with them the better I will become. So I want to be at the front, but not work too hard, which I am hopeless at (not working), so I have all my matches saved to cover that one break. And, this happens week in, week out.
Race C: Upgraded; and the way it works is, I work at the front in the paceline for Ύ of the race, then drop to the back get some energy back, wait for the A/Cat 1 riders to come through and then hang on for dear life. Racing higher grades/cats, no matter for how long, really improves you riding and leg speed etc. Last week I made the mistake of joining the break and working with the A grade riders and I blew up in two laps. I am stupid it is true.

DrWJODonnell

The common thread in all of these? Sounds like you pull through too hard/long. Do what you do, but when you are on the front do NOT accelerate, pull through and off. Done. You should NEVER burn a match on the front unless it is the end of a race and you are leading out. Match burning is for accelerations and attacks. Oh, and good luck. While you know you WANT to be in that break, it sounds to me you will never come close to hanging onto that break, so you might as well do as much work as possible in the front and just get stronger.

Sorry, but it also sounds like you are outclassed.

ft_critical

Thanks, this is true. I am hoping by hanging around with them as long as possible I will absorb some class.

woodduck

what a farkin stupid thing to write. What should he do, drop down a grade and ride the wheels off some old men or beginners or try to race with riders better and fitter than himself? what would you do, outclassed? pack up and go home?

you don't know who he is racing against so why make such an arrogant comment like that?

umd

Calm down there buddy

woodduck

I'm calm. It was a pretty lame thing to type. OP had a genuine racing related question, I think I know where he is racing and there is some serious talent there.

DrWJODonnell

Not going to be apologetic here. I dont' care if he is Rasmussen wanting to catch the wheels of Cancellara and Voigt. He is outclassed. I think that it is great that he wants to absorb some class, and great that he is trying to discover if there is some way to capitalize on what he sees as his deficiencies (not being able to make that break, or burning too many matches. I feel that my answers have been open and honest and hopefully helpful in shedding some light on his original questions.

But for you to attempt to call me out as someone who types "lame" and "farkin stupid" things simply because I "don't know who he is racing against" only shows your clouded ability to judge my comments for what they are, and I assure you they are far from arrogant. However, I might wonder where you were woodduck, when the OP wanted help with racing tactics? Because your contribution to this thread seems to be far more opinionated and arrogant and frankly off topic than any of the other posts here Mr. I-need-to-police-whatever-I-may-perceive-as-politically-incorrect-social-injustice. Returning the favor for which I never asked, please, take your critique elsewhere, as if I had to guess, yours is much less desired here than mine.

Sorry about the off topic rant ft_critical, but I am sure if you have a problem with me, you are big enough to speak for yourself.

DrWJODonnell

I believe that THAT is what I would do.

waterrockets 

Yeah, I think a lot of beginners have a misalignment of goals. One big goal is often to get to Cat 3. So, every race is super valuable because there are points available. So, you try to meter your efforts while staying near the front. You bring mediocre fitness (still developing, which is fine, and expected) and end up doing a mediocre job of maintaining a good pack position. You burn up just enough juice that one really big match just kills your day. You get your bike on top of your car and realize you're not tired.

I'm trying to get one of my neighbors (EDR knows him) to change up his Cat 4 racing. He's always trying to get just the right finish, and he's finding himself setting goals like: finish in the top 10. I want him to give up a top 10 finish once or twice to let it all hang out and try to make something happen. The first half of the race is going to be harder than ever and more fun than ever. If he ends up in the pack and finishes 17th because of it, the result doesn't much matter, but the learning and training are much greater.

waterrockets 

Great. I use Chrome, and it double-posts on BF. I used to get the "not before 30 seconds" warning. Well, now that I'm a mod, I can post however much I want, so it posts both of them.

<grumble>

KiddSisko

How many wheels are you behind when you sit in?

kudude

1) I noticed that on my ubuntu/chrome computer, but the 30s thing always fixed it for me
2) Did I miss something? Don't you have a wife and kids to take care of in between your job and squeezing in some racing?

umd

I like to be 10-20 but if it's a hard race I may be closer to the back.

woodduck

wow, and the guy up there told me to calm down.

I thought my post made sense, it's how races happen where I live in Australia, same as where the OP lives. So far I'm the only person who has told him not to attack the race, ride your own race and position yourself well instead by letting others think they are taking the wheel from you.

He wants tips on how to stay near the front to cover moves, but not burn himself out. How to position himself.

If he is racing where I think he is then the Aussie that won the US crit championship last year also won there last Tuesday night.

Racer Ex 

The arrogant comment would seem to be regarding "old men". Please, define. And he told us who he is racing against.

Doc's spot on in that he's outclassed. That happens as you head up the old food chain, and OP has a nice grasp of this, though it would have been helpful to get full disclosure up front because normally these kind of questions come from what you would call "c" or "d" grade riders. It would also be helpful to know how long he's been at this and how recently he started doing "A" grade races; a lot of us have been there/done that and are willing to share our experiences.

If you can't hang in a break with the guys who are winning, the solution isn't to try to do less work, it's to get stronger and burn matches prudently. That's it. If you just do less work and don't improve your power then your visit to Offthebackistan is just delayed a bit.

Ft, I'd just keep racing aggressively, but as I've told several riders in the past, you should be hurting others when you do, not just towing folks along. Unless the race is dragging along and you need the workout. Then just go to the front and see how many people you can shed before you blow up. There are few things as fun as having people curse you after you've ripped the field apart.

And WR's is spot on in that you shouldn't treat all races with equal importance. Take some races and just play around with how you ride; change it up. You'll learn a lot and being unpredictable is one element of long term success.

And eventually you run into guys who are just faster and always will be. That happens.

But you're going to need to get stronger.

woodduck

well the question is to post your tricks for not working at the front of the race, so that is what I have done. He is not asking for advice on how to attack to get stronger, at the end of the day thats what has to happen, but he is asking for cheeky tricks to stay out of the wind and be able to stay there and wait.

Yes he later mentioned what grades he was aiming to latch onto and the 2 riders he wants to latch onto or go with in a breakaway move.

So he is doing scratch racing or riding off a hadicap, so when the lower grades which he is racing in (and seems to be doing ok, apart from 2 very fast guys) gets caught and overtaken by the "A" graders he wants to jump on the back of "A" grade with the others from his grade and do well in his grade. In a handicapped race there will be a race winner and series points or prize money will be allocated for 1.2.3rd in each grade as well.

old men are the average slower 55-60 year olds that fill the d-e grades along with folks just starting out racing. Nothing wrong with that, we will all be there some day. I'd say he is in the middle grades based on the info given.

Racer Ex 

Much clearer picture now.

I think Doc and my advice are, in the long term, going to serve Ft better than trying to make a goal of jumping on the "A" guys.

But heck, if I knew the freight train was coming and wanted a ride, I'd sit in, find a spot on the course where the speed was the slowest, and drift off my group and latch on there. Make the catch on my terms rather than the big boys and not have to fight the rest of the group for a wheel.

But I'd wave when I came past my mates.

FYI, Doc's one of the most thoughtful, helpful, and least arrogant folks here. You were out of line with your comment to him.

JCA91

Pretend like your riding really, really hard. You know with the writhing and jerky pedaling stuff that
people do when they hurt really bad. This can be fun, I've done it before and had people congratulate
me for my effort, even though I was just faking it.