Brian Ratliff

I'll bet most sprinters have to be adept at scrapping before they can earn their loyal team leadout train.

aperez8264

^
+1, my team has 3 sprinters with me being the 'best'. Notice I put quotes, I'm not the fastest sprinter on my team but I have the most experience and have learned to outfox the other sprinters to get the jump on everyone. So in the last K, for us it comes down to who's in the best position to launch the 'winning' move.Luckily I'm only 22 and my sprint is still developing, so in few years I should be the 'outright' sprinter on w/e team I happen to be on.

MDcatV

since you're young and a cat 4, maybe you should be developing things other than your sprint or following team mates wheels. i've seen alot of cat 4 "sprinters" upgrade to cat 3 and suck because they never did anything but sit in and sprint at lower categories. then when the odds evened up some, they found out theyre really not sprinters. just sayin'.

Racer Ex 

Great bit of tactical racing (lousy vid):

ZeCanon

+1. You can sit in in the 4's pretty easily, but if you want to be able to even finish upper cat races you need to be strong enough to spend a lot of time off the front in the 4's. Let the sprint come naturally, and focus on weaknesses.

Oh, and 22 isn't that young and you are unlikely to see huge gains in sprinting ability. You ARE likely to see huge gains elsewhere. Take advantage of those gains, and don't waste time focusing on the sprint.

aperez8264

Ze and MD, I completely agree with what you guys are saying. Its not like I just sit in and do nothing the whole race, I do make break away attempts and spend a lot of time at the front of the race. I've also been doing a lot of 3/4 races, to get my feet wet with the 3s. I do focus on my sprint, but i also spend most of my training doing long sustained efforts and working on other areas. Like I said I'm not the fastest sprinter, but I am getting there

Racer Ex 

It would depend on the definition of "huge". Had a teammate (in his 40's) who was an ex RAAM guy and he focused on weight work and form sprints for several years and saw a pretty big improvement. I threw a couple of hundred watts on my peak sprint doing similar stuff. Agreed that you're not going to go from Beloki to Cipo but I think depending on your makeup, some people might have a fair amount of potential that the right training can develop.

Brian Ratliff

you can do that... or you can get together with your two other teammates and take turns leading each other out. No sense in having three of the same jerseys sprinting against each other.

tspek

OO OOO

That's me! That's me!

...i fear...

Brian Ratliff

Tactical, yes; a well timed breakaway combined with a complete lack of an organized sprint leadout.

A scrappy sprint win... not so much.

carpediemracing 

There's a difference being a good sprinter (results), a fast sprinter (top speed), and having a good jump (acceleration).

In races, in the spring when folks aren't in great shape, I'm a reasonably good "sprinter". I use both field positioning and my sprint to place, and I use my jump to gain advantage. When the summer gets on, I'm a pretty poor sprinter. I rely totally on positioning. My jump is nonexistent - it's more like a "continuation of pace" rather than a sprint. My sprint is not much better than my jump. This is because everyone else is much stronger.

I used to be much faster as a sprinter, but I didn't do well because I wasn't positioning myself well. Now, at 4-8 mph slower, I place better, but barely. In the old days I'd win hotly contested sprints by many meters - often I'd worry I sprinted on the wrong lap, or for the wrong line. Now I'm throwing the bike at the line, looking for every centimeter, even in spring races.

My jump hasn't changed much. It's lost its edge but I can't quantify it. I no longer gain 2-3 lengths in the first few pedal strokes of a jump, but it could be a combination of other things (relative to my opposition I used aero wheels, used extremely light rotating parts, and I believe this made a difference in my jump + top speed).

My positioning in the field is better than it used to be, but it hasn't changed much in the last 15 years.

Some thoughts:
- 3 guys on same team, if one is a better "positioner", then the other two ought to follow that one, esp if the others have better sprints.
- You can't really improve jump. Not substantially. Peak wattage doesn't change dramatically. A 900 watt jump won't double easily, and my 1500+ peak jumps won't turn into a 2000 or 2500 watt jump any time soon.
- You can work on top speed. That's how you kill guys with a good jump.
- Aero matters. I was going substantially faster in a semi-decent experiment where I used multiple wheels over a period of 2-3 hours. I saw a 6 mph spread across the different wheels. That's significant, even if my structure wasn't extremely scientific. I repeated wheelsets and got the same results through the test (that was my "wind effect check" as well as my "tired legs check").

cdr

Apus^2

I'm thinking of working on plyometrics this off season (maybe even sooner)--I use to have a 77 cm+ vertical in highschool (goal tending was fun ). My 5" max was 1220 last year without much dedicated work to it, so I'm hoping to be able to boost my 5" power upwards of 1450-1500. Coupled with my ability to ride the front of a crit, I'll be happy.

Pt_Lumberjack

I've only done a few C4 races so far (~10), and I've seen one semi-successful sprint train form. At the Milliken Crit on V-day, LaGrange was able to get a group of 5 or 6 riders together in a line that lead the charge for the final 1.5 laps. All I did was spot their sprinter, grab his wheel, and jump right before he went. While I beat the LaGrange sprinter, I got second in the bunch b/c the last rider in the train wasn't fast enough and effectively blocked us as a rider from a third team opened up a gap.
While it failed in the final execution, I was impressed by the level of organization from a 4's team.

loreley

lagrange does have a prety well organized team

aperez8264

Thanks CDR, once again great insight.

kudude

are we talking crits or RR here?

In a crit, I see a pattern on the last lap or two and try to move up and where at the right time.
I've not finished that many RRs with the main group (having only done a few -- I've done nearly exclusively crits). There, I don't know EXACTLY how far the finish is, necessarily and the fact that hte race is over an hour changes the dynamic a lot

Matt2.8NJ

Were you at Branchbrook this weekend? Looks like a Perez on the results.

carpediemracing 

+1 on the crit vs road race thing. I've never figured out circuit/road race sprints. So, for example, Prospect Park is still a mystery to me. I won a field sprint there once kinda by accident (meaning I didn't really think about winning it, I just sprinted as best as I could). When I try and win there I don't get better than, say, 3rd-6th. Or worse.

And, while I'm in confessional, I also have a hard time judging crit sprints. I mean, yeah, I can usually get into really good position with 300 meters to go, but really good position with 300m to go doesn't necessarily win you a bike race. It gets you a place, but it doesn't necessarily win. I have a hard time judging when I can go.

If I were taller I'd be a really good leadout guy because I could get a stronger rider into position without going into the wind too much. But on my own I'm not so effective.

btw Leadouts rarely work for me because I have a hard time hanging with a proper leadout. I've had friends and teammates ride me right off their wheel when they were simply trying to lead me out. Then, a bit shocked, they'd sit up, or, if it was for the finish, they'd find me after the race and ask if I flatted or something.

Note: a "proper leadout" is one where the pace is so high that very few riders hit 200m to go with a chance of winning the race. To wit - Cavendish's Champs win in the Tour, where his leadout guy was second place, and they had a gap to the field.

I've done one leadout like that, where only one rider stayed on my wheel. I hit the front going the high 30s, slowed to about 34 mph before I had to swing off at 200-220 m to go. He won, I stopped to catch my breath. I did a poorer leadout, 35 mph, where 5 guys were left to fight it out. That's a leadout.

A team time trial train is NOT a leadout. It's a team doing a moderately fast paceline (typically 30-32 mph) at the front. It's very easy to follow, very easy to move up next to (if someone else is doing a proper leadout). 10 guys back they'll be coasting, probably literally half the time. Coast, pedal. Coast, pedal.

cdr

gsteinb

It's a Jedi thing....when someone thinks about jumping you jump first.

Quel

That stage is great to watch for leadouts. The video below has the last few miles, and I've watched it a handful of times. It has a great camera shot of Renshaw and Cavendish from the side leading up to the finish, which shows their effortless sprinting form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpmnx7l_Ib0

Kris Flatlander

Alright, this is in relation to both the quoted comment and CDR's comments since I seem to hear this all the time.

Does anyone else think that HTC-Columbia's Champ's win last year was more Garmin-Slipstream screwing up in the final kilometers rather than raw dominance? Whenever I see this clip I see Garmin getting on the front too early, and Julian Dean/Tyler Farrar trying to jump the last corner on a bad line, losing a bunch of speed, and forcing a gap between Renshaw/Cavendish and the remainder of the peloton. Renshaw/Cavendish hold their speed, and as Ligget says the win becomes a "formality".

Now before you start typing in anger, I'm not saying that Farrar would have railed Cavendish in the sprint, but I do think that if Garmin hadn't screwed up that the sprint would've bee much closer to a "true" field sprint.

So to try and bring this back around and on to topic, when giving a leadout don't go too early, and don't screw up lines in crucial corners trying to make up places.

carpediemracing 

I agree with the statement that it wasn't just HTC in that sprint.

My assessment back then:
https://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...r-blunder.html

Thor basically took himself out of the sprint since all he wanted to do was to protect the green jersey. He didn't have the "nothing to lose" attitude of someone going for the stage win - he played it kind of safe at the end.

Garmin's last guy chickened out, or blew up, in the last turn. I'm not him so I can't say much, but those cobbles aren't very sticky at 40-42 mph. It must have been nerve-wracking. But he should have gone or he should have pulled over and let Farrar through. Unfortunately he did block Farrar after the turn, there's no way around that. Farrar must have been close to the limit too - if he'd have jumped around immediately he may have kept the gap closed.

HTC did exactly what they had to do. They ramped up the speed, caught their breath when they had only two guys left, and they went super hard at the 1k kite. Hincapie did a monster pull - huge out of saddle effort, go at least 600 meters, made it impossible for anyone to come around.

In Garmin's defense there were no other teams willing or capable of fighting. Cervelo had a few guys up there at one point late but they all disappeared. No one else made the efforts.

cdr

saratoga

I've been told I have a good sprint, but I'm terrible at judging them. RR or crit, it doesn't matter.

The few courses I've done well at consistently, I can judge it, jump at the right time and get a decent result (my definition of decent result=somewhere in the top 10-12). Others I've raced on for several years and still find myself in the wrong place at the final turn. Being late to the party is another one of my qualities... I'll wait for the guy in front of me to jump, by then it's too late; I'll pass 2 or 3 riders in front of me, but by then we're too close to the finish and it's game over.

On the rare occasions when every planet, moon and galaxy are in alignment the jump is perfectly timed and it feels excellent though.

tspek

The E-Wang chart is defective.
My opponents have horrible sprint numbers.
Sprinting is more than having legs.

Pick one.

carpediemracing 

I have to edit my cam tape from 3/28. I want to post it here as an example of scrappy sprinting.

My numbers were good but wrong - the cold seemed to have artificially raised all the numbers by a good 10 to 20+% (I set indoors then raced outdoors) - so I can't comment on numbers, but based on my efforts I waited as long as I could, even though I was in some wind, before I launched. I'm actually proud of my last lap effort - I spent a lot of energy out in the wind. If you'd asked me what I did, I'd have said 10 seconds max in the wind, the rest of the time sitting on, but the reality was a bit different.

cdr