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  1. #1
    Genetics have failed me Scummer's Avatar
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    Specific training strategy for attacks and fast recovery

    Well.. this Sunday I did a cat4 race and felt pretty good. I was able to move inside the pack without much trouble and with 5 laps to go I thought I'm going to start a bridging attempt, which I initiated by trying to rip the cleats of my shoes, just to completely fizzle about a 1/4 lap later (the course was about 1.2 miles long) and then the pack slowly went by as I was still trying to recover, I missed the train and offthebackistan I went.

    Now what kind of specific training can be done to stage an attack and recover quickly so I'm going to be able to latch on the pack again, recover and then start another a few more minutes later?
    Gelato aficionado.

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    Village Idiot
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    Basically vo2max efforts and on/off intervals. On for 2 mins off for 1, etc.
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    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    Tabatas, criss-cross intervals, anything that's some combination of "Time above threshold / time at (or just below) threshold"
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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    ^these should be part of any and all training programs and done as part of one's progression toward their target or peak time of the racing season.

    if you're dropping off the back now during your early season, you're just getting out of whatever you do for base training, and still a ways out from your target race block, starting to do vo2max and awc work is barking up the wrong tree. IMO, you need more base/l4/threshold development work, whatever you want to call it.

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    Part of it is going too hard when you attack etc. I used to think I wasn't going too hard, but when I got a powermeter I learned my "light" attacks were sometimes harder than my final sprint.

    Part of recovering is working on base.

    Finally you simply need to get used to the pain, i.e. training. The best training I got was doing a competitive mile of riding (for a sprint line) on a 2 mile loop - the SUNY Purchase Tuesday Night Sprints. Each lap took about 7 minutes and about 2-2.5 minutes of it was flat out. 50-150 guys, yellow line kinda sorta, and top speeds of 38-40 mph in the leadout, 40-46 in the sprint. After a few sprints I thought that was it, but I learned that if I tried to go "one more sprint" I could contest 15-16 sprints a night (I'd sit out maybe 10 sprints). I don't know how to replicate that but I can't do it on my own. Some kind of training race or training loop with others to push you mentally.

    cdr

  6. #6
    Genetics have failed me Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    ^these should be part of any and all training programs and done as part of one's progression toward their target or peak time of the racing season.

    if you're dropping off the back now during your early season, you're just getting out of whatever you do for base training, and still a ways out from your target race block, starting to do vo2max and awc work is barking up the wrong tree. IMO, you need more base/l4/threshold development work, whatever you want to call it.
    I don't think my base fitness is the problem as I was able to hang with the pack even into a fierce headwind on the back stretch of the course. I also did over 600 miles in the last 3 month of mostly tempo rides just to get my FTP up.

    So I more or less just wanted to know what kind of intervals would be beneficial for those kind of moves. Otherwise I don't think there would be so many different interval programs out there since they are all targeting something specific.
    Gelato aficionado.

  7. #7
    Genetics have failed me Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Part of it is going too hard when you attack etc. I used to think I wasn't going too hard, but when I got a powermeter I learned my "light" attacks were sometimes harder than my final sprint.
    cdr
    Yeah, that I can see. I just thought, if I don't go out hard enough I won't even get separation from the pack since they most likely will chase me down right away. I'm gonna try with less power next time and see what happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I don't think my base fitness is the problem as I was able to hang with the pack even into a fierce headwind on the back stretch of the course. I also did over 600 miles in the last 3 month of mostly tempo rides just to get my FTP up.

    So I more or less just wanted to know what kind of intervals would be beneficial for those kind of moves. Otherwise I don't think there would be so many different interval programs out there since they are all targeting something specific.
    600 miles in 3 months (12 weeks) = 50 mi /week. that's like 3 hrs/week. not enough. i stand by my original assessment.

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    Yeah man. 6hrs a week should be the bare min for crits, more for RR's.
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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  10. #10
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    sheesh

    I put on 1600 miles since Jan 1 and am pack fodder.

  11. #11
    bf is my facebook. ljrichar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
    Yeah man. 6hrs a week should be the bare min for crits, more for RR's.
    Yeah, I didn't want to be the first one to say this.

  12. #12
    Genetics have failed me Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    600 miles in 3 months (12 weeks) = 50 mi /week. that's like 3 hrs/week. not enough. i stand by my original assessment.
    Hmm... ok.. let me rephrase that, over 350 miles just in March when the weather finally started to creep above 30F.

    But yeah, I guess I can see what you're saying. *sigh*
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    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    600 miles in 3 months (12 weeks) = 50 mi /week. that's like 3 hrs/week. not enough. i stand by my original assessment.
    +1

    Also, Base seems to have a lot to do with (micro-)recovery, not just hanging in the pack.

    The size of your base equals how many matches you have up your sleeve. I think.
    cat 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Hmm... ok.. let me rephrase that, over 350 miles just in March when the weather finally started to creep above 30F.

    But yeah, I guess I can see what you're saying. *sigh*
    that's still <100 mi/week, and inside of 6 hrs/week. not to belabor the point, but to be effective on that little volume, you've gotta be doing intensity at >= threshold every time you're on the bike.

  15. #15
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Well.. this Sunday I did a cat4 race and felt pretty good. I was able to move inside the pack without much trouble and with 5 laps to go I thought I'm going to start a bridging attempt, which I initiated by trying to rip the cleats of my shoes, just to completely fizzle about a 1/4 lap later (the course was about 1.2 miles long) and then the pack slowly went by as I was still trying to recover, I missed the train and offthebackistan I went.
    Bridging to what?

  16. #16
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I don't think my base fitness is the problem as I was able to hang with the pack even into a fierce headwind on the back stretch of the course. I also did over 600 miles in the last 3 month of mostly tempo rides just to get my FTP up.
    When your fitness really isn't the problem, that sentence will be "I was able to comfortably move to the front of the pack on the upwind side with a fierce headwind"

    I agree with MDcatV. Build FTP and everything else will follow. Once you really get a strong foundation then you can start to focus some on VO2 and AWC work. It may be that you'll start to plateau and that will be all you're going to get for that training peak, but you'll know it when that comes (look for it).

  17. #17
    Genetics have failed me Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by umd View Post
    Bridging to what?
    Two riders OTF. Maybe about 200 feet ahead. My thought was, I bridge, we are 3, we work together and maybe something can happen.
    I've never done a bridging attempt in a race, only during Tueday nighter training rides.
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    Ride lots.

    End thread.

    If you're too wussy to train in weather less than 30 degrees, you should either move south, quit racing, or HTFU.
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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  19. #19
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
    Ride lots.

    End thread.

    If you're too wussy to train in weather less than 30 degrees, you should either move south, quit racing, or HTFU.
    ...or buy a trainer
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  20. #20
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
    Ride lots.

    End thread.

    If you're too wussy to train in weather less than 30 degrees, you should either move south, quit racing, or HTFU.
    Geez dude. We need to get you fixed and back on the bike, you're awful punchy these days.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
    Ride lots.

    End thread.

    If you're too wussy to train in weather less than 30 degrees, you should either move south, quit racing, or HTFU.
    relax.

  22. #22
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    To be fair, I was promoting the HTFU part

    And I'm too young to get fixed!
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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  23. #23
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Scummer - that crit was off the hook crazy though. 3rd 45 minute crit in less than 24 hrs for most of us in that field. That wind was fierce and NOTHING was getting away. BTW - thanks for making me feel like I wanted to puke with that attack with 5 to go. All you did is get the strong guys (like slim_77) to get off their butts and drive it a few laps earlier than normal.

    Besides...we know it was your wheel that was holding you back.

  24. #24
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    I respectfully disagree that a fit racer can move up the side. I have a hard time doing that and usually keep track of my efforts like that.

    Of course, I just saw one of my teammate's power data - he did 354w for 20 min in a race in a break. Holy crow. He's like, "Yeah, this is my best 20 min power." I was like, um, mine is 268. Like wtf, why can't I go 354 for 20 min. I can barely hold 290 for 5 min.

    Hm. I think I forgot to set my SRM. my power numbers are insane for Sunday. Crap.

    cdr

  25. #25
    Genetics have failed me Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    Scummer - that crit was off the hook crazy though. 3rd 45 minute crit in less than 24 hrs for most of us in that field. That wind was fierce and NOTHING was getting away. BTW - thanks for making me feel like I wanted to puke with that attack with 5 to go. All you did is get the strong guys (like slim_77) to get off their butts and drive it a few laps earlier than normal.

    Besides...we know it was your wheel that was holding you back.
    Well.. I felt good and I thought I had to mix it up a bit, even though the 24mph avg speed showed good speed for a crit I really wanted to try to bridge up. I guess I did get the pack to react at least
    Gelato aficionado.

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