33 pro doping thread
05-27-10, 10:07 AM
#1
Making a kilometer blurry
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33 pro doping thread
This time the story is likely to be big enough to deserve a thread here. We're not moving this one to 217, so if you don't like it, don't come in.
Here's a good quote to get it rolling (EDR let me know if you'd rather not start it off):
Here's a good quote to get it rolling (EDR let me know if you'd rather not start it off):
I wasn't convinced (still not 100% but 99.9%) that LA doped until Ulrich and Basso both got popped (yes I think Basso doped I don't buy the line he was selling). It's conceivable that a clean LA could beat a doped Jan or Ivan once in awhile but not all the damn time...if Jan is as good as people said he was then Jan on drugs would have been super human...which would have made Lance super duper human..which I just don't believe.
I also firmly believe that LA was better than both of them natural or doped..he doped to level the playing field so I think he would have won but just not as consistently. I am very conflicted about doping and even more about outing Lance. Lance does some very kind and wonderful things for people who are suffering with cancer...on the other hand he crushes anyone and everyone who even mentions his name and doping in public. Sometimes he's like that right wing Senator who is so vehemently against gays turns out to be blowing male hookers in gas station bathrooms. I understand wanting to protect what he's built but he's ruthless in his retaliation...that has earned him enemies and at some point someone will give up the goods...then what?
I don't think anyone here is under the illusion that the sport is clean or will ever be...for that matter this includes all professional sport. If money is involved there will be those who will try to game the system...once you realize that you can chose to join them or quit. It's a sad reality, but it is reality. What makes it hard for those of us who enjoy cycling is that while other sports are getting away with their systematic doping ours is getting a very public crucifixion. A sport that is basically run at the behest of wealthy patrons (sponsors) could collapse because of the fall out from this. The damage done by outing LA may end up being too much for a sport that has suffered greatly over the last decade from doping scandals. I can't see teams like Garmin or HTC surviving let alone the domestic teams.
I also firmly believe that LA was better than both of them natural or doped..he doped to level the playing field so I think he would have won but just not as consistently. I am very conflicted about doping and even more about outing Lance. Lance does some very kind and wonderful things for people who are suffering with cancer...on the other hand he crushes anyone and everyone who even mentions his name and doping in public. Sometimes he's like that right wing Senator who is so vehemently against gays turns out to be blowing male hookers in gas station bathrooms. I understand wanting to protect what he's built but he's ruthless in his retaliation...that has earned him enemies and at some point someone will give up the goods...then what?
I don't think anyone here is under the illusion that the sport is clean or will ever be...for that matter this includes all professional sport. If money is involved there will be those who will try to game the system...once you realize that you can chose to join them or quit. It's a sad reality, but it is reality. What makes it hard for those of us who enjoy cycling is that while other sports are getting away with their systematic doping ours is getting a very public crucifixion. A sport that is basically run at the behest of wealthy patrons (sponsors) could collapse because of the fall out from this. The damage done by outing LA may end up being too much for a sport that has suffered greatly over the last decade from doping scandals. I can't see teams like Garmin or HTC surviving let alone the domestic teams.
05-27-10, 10:13 AM
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LA seems to have a lot of "disgruntled" former employees.
I think it's possible, to as a team, win a race year after year if you assemble the best team with the best riders. But, I don't see person after person saying they personally saw Jordan doping. I wonder what the difference is.
I think it's possible, to as a team, win a race year after year if you assemble the best team with the best riders. But, I don't see person after person saying they personally saw Jordan doping. I wonder what the difference is.
05-27-10, 10:18 AM
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LA seems to have a lot of "disgruntled" former employees.
I think it's possible, to as a team, win a race year after year if you assemble the best team with the best riders. But, I don't see person after person saying they personally saw Jordan doping. I wonder what the difference is.
I think it's possible, to as a team, win a race year after year if you assemble the best team with the best riders. But, I don't see person after person saying they personally saw Jordan doping. I wonder what the difference is.
05-27-10, 10:23 AM
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Maybe everyone has seen these already, but here are some interesting articles re: Landis confession and Lance...
https://bicycling.com/blogs/sittingin...wer-is-coming/
This part jumped out at me:
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...ffset=0&page=1
This one has a lot of interesting detail re: disgruntled former employees, teammates, etc.
https://bicycling.com/blogs/sittingin...wer-is-coming/
This part jumped out at me:
The worst that could be factually said of Armstrong without leaving any real room for argument is that he was the greatest Tour de France racer in a time of great Tour de France doping. There were 14 other podium spots available during his seven-year streak and, in all, eight riders occupied them. Five of those riders at some point admitted doping, were suspended for it, were convicted of it in court, or paid a fine to have charges settled: Ivan Basso, Raimondas Rumsas, Jan Ullrich, Alexander Vinokourov and Alex Zulle. Two others were linked to doping investigations then cleared or never charged: Joseba Beloki and Andreas Kloden. Just one, Fernando Escartin, had no direct association with doping allegations (though his Kelme team later would).
This one has a lot of interesting detail re: disgruntled former employees, teammates, etc.
05-27-10, 10:29 AM
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I wonder how far this federal investigation is going to go. If enough money is spent on finding the truth, there's going to be some major lawsuits coming. Imagine if LA finally came clean? His entire empire based on cheating and lying. I mean, we already knew that, but there's so many who are blind 
05-27-10, 10:32 AM
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My own theory:
There was (won't comment on is) an "in" crowd. In on what was going on. Floyd was In. All the TDF guys were In. It was rampant.
Floyd got busted, and all these guys who were all In, who knew Floyd was In, and who knew Floyd knew they were In, sent Floyd Out. If I was Floyd, I would be a bit peeved that all these fools, who were just as In as Floyd was, were taking the high road. So he did the normal denial thing. Granted, took it a little too far. Mistake #1 in reduction of credibility.
Ban finished up, and he tries to get back on the horse. Maybe clean this time. All the former In guys, who knew exactly what Floyd did and what they themselves were doing, kept him Out. Lance kept him Out, despite knowing that Floyd was simply the unlucky/stupid one who got caught. Floyd tried to get on Radioshack last fall, remember?
Yes, Floyd has sucked since he returned. But as far as he is concerned, these In guys are still keeping him Out. Not getting into ToC was the last straw. So he outs all the In guys for not helping him get back into the top level of the sport, despite their full knowledge of what they all did.
Of course, he's just laying blame elsewhere for his own issues. He's fat, and compared to his old days pretty out of shape. I've out climbed the fool a couple times. But that's irrelevant - what matters is his own perception of the slights against him by the men he used to be In with.
The question for me at this point, because I have talked to enough insiders to believe most of Floyd's story, is how high up the In crowd went. Bruyneel, almost definitely. Stapleton? Ochowicz? I don't know. Answering that question will determine the direction of this alleged Federal investigation.
There was (won't comment on is) an "in" crowd. In on what was going on. Floyd was In. All the TDF guys were In. It was rampant.
Floyd got busted, and all these guys who were all In, who knew Floyd was In, and who knew Floyd knew they were In, sent Floyd Out. If I was Floyd, I would be a bit peeved that all these fools, who were just as In as Floyd was, were taking the high road. So he did the normal denial thing. Granted, took it a little too far. Mistake #1 in reduction of credibility.
Ban finished up, and he tries to get back on the horse. Maybe clean this time. All the former In guys, who knew exactly what Floyd did and what they themselves were doing, kept him Out. Lance kept him Out, despite knowing that Floyd was simply the unlucky/stupid one who got caught. Floyd tried to get on Radioshack last fall, remember?
Yes, Floyd has sucked since he returned. But as far as he is concerned, these In guys are still keeping him Out. Not getting into ToC was the last straw. So he outs all the In guys for not helping him get back into the top level of the sport, despite their full knowledge of what they all did.
Of course, he's just laying blame elsewhere for his own issues. He's fat, and compared to his old days pretty out of shape. I've out climbed the fool a couple times. But that's irrelevant - what matters is his own perception of the slights against him by the men he used to be In with.
The question for me at this point, because I have talked to enough insiders to believe most of Floyd's story, is how high up the In crowd went. Bruyneel, almost definitely. Stapleton? Ochowicz? I don't know. Answering that question will determine the direction of this alleged Federal investigation.
05-27-10, 10:47 AM
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My own theory:
There was (won't comment on is) an "in" crowd. In on what was going on. Floyd was In. All the TDF guys were In. It was rampant.
Floyd got busted, and all these guys who were all In, who knew Floyd was In, and who knew Floyd knew they were In, sent Floyd Out. If I was Floyd, I would be a bit peeved that all these fools, who were just as In as Floyd was, were taking the high road. So he did the normal denial thing. Granted, took it a little too far. Mistake #1 in reduction of credibility.
Ban finished up, and he tries to get back on the horse. Maybe clean this time. All the former In guys, who knew exactly what Floyd did and what they themselves were doing, kept him Out. Lance kept him Out, despite knowing that Floyd was simply the unlucky/stupid one who got caught. Floyd tried to get on Radioshack last fall, remember?
Yes, Floyd has sucked since he returned. But as far as he is concerned, these In guys are still keeping him Out. Not getting into ToC was the last straw. So he outs all the In guys for not helping him get back into the top level of the sport, despite their full knowledge of what they all did.
Of course, he's just laying blame elsewhere for his own issues. He's fat, and compared to his old days pretty out of shape. I've out climbed the fool a couple times. But that's irrelevant - what matters is his own perception of the slights against him by the men he used to be In with.
The question for me at this point, because I have talked to enough insiders to believe most of Floyd's story, is how high up the In crowd went. Bruyneel, almost definitely. Stapleton? Ochowicz? I don't know. Answering that question will determine the direction of this alleged Federal investigation.
There was (won't comment on is) an "in" crowd. In on what was going on. Floyd was In. All the TDF guys were In. It was rampant.
Floyd got busted, and all these guys who were all In, who knew Floyd was In, and who knew Floyd knew they were In, sent Floyd Out. If I was Floyd, I would be a bit peeved that all these fools, who were just as In as Floyd was, were taking the high road. So he did the normal denial thing. Granted, took it a little too far. Mistake #1 in reduction of credibility.
Ban finished up, and he tries to get back on the horse. Maybe clean this time. All the former In guys, who knew exactly what Floyd did and what they themselves were doing, kept him Out. Lance kept him Out, despite knowing that Floyd was simply the unlucky/stupid one who got caught. Floyd tried to get on Radioshack last fall, remember?
Yes, Floyd has sucked since he returned. But as far as he is concerned, these In guys are still keeping him Out. Not getting into ToC was the last straw. So he outs all the In guys for not helping him get back into the top level of the sport, despite their full knowledge of what they all did.
Of course, he's just laying blame elsewhere for his own issues. He's fat, and compared to his old days pretty out of shape. I've out climbed the fool a couple times. But that's irrelevant - what matters is his own perception of the slights against him by the men he used to be In with.
The question for me at this point, because I have talked to enough insiders to believe most of Floyd's story, is how high up the In crowd went. Bruyneel, almost definitely. Stapleton? Ochowicz? I don't know. Answering that question will determine the direction of this alleged Federal investigation.
05-27-10, 10:51 AM
#9
out walking the earth
I don't really buy that. I think it's fallacious to ascribe motive and reason to people and situations we don't know. I could just as easily make a case for Floyd selling out his heritage by pursuing fame and fortune.
05-27-10, 10:55 AM
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does that mean he can't come home again?
I had thoughts that maybe this was just Floyd wanting to absolve his guilt, but it seems to me that since he is pointing fingers at a lot of other riders it is more than that, and seems vindictive.
I think if he were going to really just get a fresh start and go back to his Mennonite roots, he would simply state his own involvement in doping, and then exit stage left, no further involvement.
I had thoughts that maybe this was just Floyd wanting to absolve his guilt, but it seems to me that since he is pointing fingers at a lot of other riders it is more than that, and seems vindictive.
I think if he were going to really just get a fresh start and go back to his Mennonite roots, he would simply state his own involvement in doping, and then exit stage left, no further involvement.
05-27-10, 10:57 AM
#12
out walking the earth
I'm not saying he can or can't come home. I'm saying that there is no way to know what's going on his head. It's ***********y to pretend we can know. You can posit any number of theories, but none of them have any basis in reality.
05-27-10, 11:01 AM
#13
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ok..as long as we are discussing this topic in general I will pose a question that maybe some of you have thought about...
Do you think that "outing" the doping that goes on in pro cycling is A: good for the sport or B: bad for the sport?
consider the whole picture, history of the sport etc
Do you think that "outing" the doping that goes on in pro cycling is A: good for the sport or B: bad for the sport?
consider the whole picture, history of the sport etc
05-27-10, 11:03 AM
#14
out walking the earth
I think it's bigger than the sport. Since drug use isn't related to one sport but all sports I think it pokes at an ill of man kind. It definitely does not bode well for cycling. If it's outed as a really dirty sport, wouldn't parents be less inclined to allow their children to participate? If we tear down all the heroes what happens to fred sales? speed and legend help to drive sales.
05-27-10, 11:03 AM
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A) Escape from this unscathed and go along his merry way
B) No jail time but his rep will be ruined
C) End up playing slap and tickle in Federal Prison
05-27-10, 11:04 AM
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We know a hell of a lot about the situation, if we're working on the assumption that his accusations are largely accurate. Which I am.
05-27-10, 11:05 AM
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ok..as long as we are discussing this topic in general I will pose a question that maybe some of you have thought about...
Do you think that "outing" the doping that goes on in pro cycling is A: good for the sport or B: bad for the sport?
consider the whole picture, history of the sport etc
Do you think that "outing" the doping that goes on in pro cycling is A: good for the sport or B: bad for the sport?
consider the whole picture, history of the sport etc
05-27-10, 11:05 AM
#18
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I will answer first. I think, on balance, that all the scandals of late have hurt pro cycling in general. I do not think pro athletes will ever stop doping entirely. This just makes it more ugly to the world of fans. Isn't pro cycling a spectator sport anyway?
05-27-10, 11:06 AM
#19
out walking the earth
it's inconceivable that LA goes to jail for using EPO. Unless he's stupid enough to lie to a grand jury, which I doubt he'll ever be before worst that happens is he's banned from the sport and retires in disgrace.
05-27-10, 11:07 AM
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So what you are saying is we "the fans" don't care if they dope...we just don't want to know about it.
05-27-10, 11:08 AM
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If he goes to jail it won't be for using PED's it will be for defrauding the Federal government.
05-27-10, 11:09 AM
#23
out walking the earth
right, and I've yet to see that argument posited in a way that has any validity. it's a sponsor. it's a dirty sport. they got the bang for the buck that they paid for. they'd have a hard time proving fraud, or that a rider on the team could be held responsible.
05-27-10, 11:09 AM
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He has already lied in court during cases against those who tried to out him before. By entering the court in those situations he was claiming to be clean.
05-27-10, 11:09 AM
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ok..as long as we are discussing this topic in general I will pose a question that maybe some of you have thought about...
Do you think that "outing" the doping that goes on in pro cycling is A: good for the sport or B: bad for the sport?
consider the whole picture, history of the sport etc
Do you think that "outing" the doping that goes on in pro cycling is A: good for the sport or B: bad for the sport?
consider the whole picture, history of the sport etc
I don't quite understand why people hate Floyd because he is outing other people. So what? They (the cheaters) f*cked up as well and deserve all they get. Bring the whole house down for all I care.
I play by the rules, why can't they?