Sean T

What's the rationale for reducing the duration of a crit from it's advertised length? This weekend I did the cat 4 race in berkeley and it was down from 50 to 35 minutes. Nothing said up front, just a surprise about 25 minutes in: "7 to go!". Was very odd and kinda made it difficult to execute my original race strategy.

And no, they weren't running behind and it started on time.

Kinda annoying.

-Sean

7bmwm3gtr

Hey I did that crit too! I was in the Juniors and the 5's.

When they said 7 to go, I think they meant laps cuz my race was 40 minutes, and the CAT5's were 40 even though I didn't finish the 5's.

Sean T

They did mean laps when they said 7, and it turned out to be about 35 minutes long for the whole race. 70% of the advertised duration.

mattm

They subtract 5-10 mins from crits here often, though it is at least said upfront (pre-race talk from the official).

I usually guess it's because they're behind schedule, which they seem to be a lot around here.

Did they perhaps add an extra kids race after yours, or bump up the 1/2's time or something?

Racer Ex 

You're lucky. Here they've added a lap after the bell lap on occasion.

carpediemracing 

There are two ways promoters do timed races.

One is time the first few laps and extrapolate how many laps the field will do in 50 minutes. The problem is when the field goes fast or slow for the first lap. If it's slow (say field does one lap of one mile in 5 minutes - that means the race extrapolates to 10 laps long) and then picks up the pace, the race will be short. So the field does the 5 minute lap (12 mph) then starts going 24 mph (2.5 minute pace). You can see how 10 laps will go by pretty quickly.

Tip: if you enter a race like that, go hard for the first few laps. Then settle down. It'll work out about right, but you'll get your "full race" in. If a lot of people understand this, you can have a scorcher of an opening (where no one tries to break away) and then a really long race.

The other way is to promote a timed race is to announce time + laps. So 40 minutes plus 5 laps (for example).

The problem is that the promoter has to indicate 5 to go (if there is a free lap rule) - that's in the rules for promoting a race. In a timed race the promoter has to indicate 5 to go (i.e. no more free laps). Therefore the promoter can't just say "okay, 5 minutes to go". They have to extrapolate laps (method one above) or do time+laps (method two).

A promoter that used to do time+laps and now does races by start time and distance,
cdr

breathing

Why do they do timed crits? CDR might be able to help out on this I think? maybe? I know that from a scheduling standpoint it makes it "easier" to predict when to start the next race. But I would imagine that anyone organizing a race would know approximately how long it takes to race a certain distance for different categories. And then leave some extra time to warm up for the next cat. I've never heard anyone complain that they had too much time to warm up on the course.

Voodoo76

Unknown Distance can be kinda fun.

shovelhd

If you prefer field sprints.

carpediemracing 

If you're talking a lot of police ($25k for 8? hours for a local crit around here, which isn't held anymore), then every 15 or 30 minutes is a lot of money. Everyone wants qualifying races (i.e. a certain minimum distance), you need a few minutes for even the best finishline folks to get results, and you have to factor in crashes, ambulances, etc. Random weather doesn't help, so rain, strong wind, snow/sleet (for a spring race), etc.

So a very efficient organizer may choose to go the "timed race" route. I did, for many years (I did the time+laps way, I didn't like the extrapolation thing).

The reason we did this is that sometimes certain races would literally average 14-15 mph or less, and if you set them off on a 25 mile race, you can't really shorten it without offending them ("5 laps to go - you're going too slow!").

But then I went to a race where it was "first race at whatever time, other races follow". I was worried about time so go to the race, guessing when my race would start (it was one of the last ones, maybe 10-12 races on the schedule). I think I got to the race 5 or so hours early. I did horribly and had a poor race day experience. The next spring I did my races as distance, with start times.

cdr

Sean T

It'd be one thing I think if just getting a handle on start/stop times cut it to 45 or whatever due to calculations made but when it drops to 70% of the stated duration that's an enormous difference. It completely changes the race in my opinion. Well, cat 4 so not many people probably cared but I did

-sean

kudude

I ****ing cared, and I was wearing a BBC (team that hosted the race) kit. I got there at 5:30am to line up the hay bales.

I had 36 minutes in the E4 race, but we're on the same page. I heard 7 to go at the 28 minute (or so) mark, and definitely was confused. FYI, the promoting club (ours) didn't have anything to do with this, but I'd like to find out why it happened. The officials ran the table and timing as far as I know.

Sean - what kit were you wearing? I probably saw you out there

carpediemracing 

If you care and you go to a timed crit, find out how they time it. If it's the first way (average lap times for x laps, then figure out how many laps would make the goal time), then recruit fellow racers to go fast without attacking for x laps. Then you can calm down and race your race.

If it's time + laps it doesn't matter.

It's up to the racer to know how the race is being run. Then you have control over it.

I highly doubt the officials arbitrarily decided "Let's make it 7 to go". I'm betting the field went slow for the first lap or two, the officials used those laps to determine how many laps to give the field, and then counted them down. If that is the case, the field of racers got what it earned.

Of course, I may be wrong. I've had negative experiences with officials where they made arbitrary decisions (which, at the time, were not appeal-able - I either accept it or don't race). So it's possible that an official makes an arbitrary decision like that. But it's not good if they did.

Note to the BBC rider - your club should find out why the race/s were so short. It reflects poorly on the host club if the race is not enjoyable. And it sucks that you were out there helping set up and had a less than great race experience.

cdr

El Diablo Rojo

Yeah that always makes it extra fun doesn't it?

kudude

Fair enough. The onus is on the racers and I'll find out what happened. I'll take a look at the data, but I don't think the first 2-3 laps were significantly slower (longer) than the rest. I don't know that any other races where shortened - this was the 3rd race of hte day and started at 9am, so it's possible the officials were still figuring it out.

For the record, I don't know about Sean but I've heard the speech about timing the first laps and then extrapolating at the beginning of 75% of the races here. We heard "50 minutes" 5 times at the line (which is longer than most e4 crits in the area).

arexjay

I was in this 4s race, and I, too, was bummed about it being shortened. I do better in longer events.

It seemed like the pace was quick enough. I know it started fast because I put in a little attack from the whistle, and it definitely ended fast.

Which kits were you all in?

Sean T

I was in the SJBC kit. blue/white.

I'll definitely find out beforehand in timed crits how the laps will be determined. I'm just a little upset because I drove pretty far for a 35 minute crit

-Sean

Creakyknees

One promoter here has got past the time / budget / minimum upgrade problem this way: he gets the permit / sets the flyer with distance. e.g. cat 4, 10 am, 25 miles.

Then as the cat 4's race, he instructs the officials to put out 5 to go so they race finishes by 10:50.

So for racers who want upgrade points, they can point to a flyer that says 25 miles.

The promoter gets to have more races without paying for extra time.

kudude

I'm on the right side in the white and blue w/ white sunglasses (and ugly gloves)


word from a promoter on the race length:

It's all up to the officials. THey have their own secluded tent and booth with timing and cameras and whatnot. The guess going around is that the first two races were 40 minutes, and they either misread the flyer or were asleep at the wheel and ran ours for 40 minutes. Looks like the avg speed might have gone up by an mph or two near the end, so a 36 minute race makes a little sense with some fudging. Unfortunate nonetheless

rydaddy

I was there too. Blew up by the last lap ... but the team did ok (Davis Bike Club).

kudude, I saw you on many occasions and meant to say hi... I must have been out of breath

tallmantim

Do they not have multiple cats out on the course at once in the US?

Over here, that's par for the course - except for hotdog crits. Different grades are designated with coloured bands on the helmets:



with special rules for bell lap - it works pretty well overall (as long as you're not stuck on a tight corner at 35kmh when A grade comes through at 45kmh!)

botto 

what's with the headbands on the helmets?

umd

I've heard officials say to go slow in the first few laps if you want a shorter race. That said, 50 minutes is pretty long for a cat 4 race, they probably just got confused and ran the more typical 40 minutes.

And Tim, not usually multiple races on the course at the same, except for some mixed categories like cat 4/5 or masters 45/55 that race together but scored separate. At least that's what it's like here.

bwunger

They're probably for the different grades.

carpediemracing 

I had to. Sorry.

My first thought was "Man, these companies do all this ventilation stuff and BAM lower 3 inches all blocked off."

You need "Aussie" specific helmets with ventilation emphasis up top.