johnybutts

OK, I'm curious what people's thoughts are on this situation, which I find myself in reasonably frequently.

Weekly crit series, flat course, no significant technical sections, 1.2 mile loop (roughly 2k).

45 minute race, final laps... go something like this...
3 to go, balls out attacks? dunno, but the pace is high
2 to go, somewhere in here the group slows down from ~27 mph average to ~22 mph average, the entire group bunches.
1 to go, You attack at the start/finish and get off the front with 1 other guy.

What do you do? I understand a lot of the discussion will revolve around beating the other guy, I'm more curious about optimal strategy to ensure you get to the finish before the pack, other guy or not. Maybe the other guy is a teammate, or at least willing to lose for you, or just an idiot who can be encouraged to blow himself up.

5 sec pulls? 10 sec? let one pull half a lap, the other go all out for the last half?

I've yet to do this and make it to the finish =\

ElJamoquio

5 seconds is too quick. 10 sec minimum IMO. In fact I really prefer a bit longer than that but that's probably just me.

If he's working for you he should do most of the work for the first few hundred yards (initial attack) and should probably be fried 400m from the end and launch you.

But if the pack sees two teammates go OTF with one lap to go they're going to go as hard as they can.



I dunno, it seems easier to me to go with 15 minutes to go. At least, I've never made an attack in the last five mins that I've been able to make stick. You want people to think you're going to fail whether they chase you hard or not.

MDcatV

ime, in the situation you describe, last lap attacks are never successful. field is in kill mode so you never effectively get away, and if you do, you're too far from the line to hold it. go either closer to the line WR style (this will work at the cat 3/4/5 level, above that leadouts are too fast and racers arent dumb enough to watch someone sprint and win going away from 1' out) or go from farther out so you have a chance to establish gap and hold it to the line.

with someone else, you do have a chance to hold it to the finish but honestly, if you dick around trying to beat each other, you'll get caught by the finish surge even if its unsophistocated with no real leadout happening. the 2 of you need to have a gap and work hard. dont worry about how long your pulls are, pull until you feel that little momentum slow than get off and sprint back onto the wheel as it comes through. worry about beating ea other in the last 100M.

mattm

That's what I was thinking. Seems like you need to go earlier, so that the last-few-lap-speedup doesn't catch you.

That too. I was in a break of 3 like that last weekend, we were working together well and it was FAST - just pull through, don't count to X. Felt harder than getting to sit in for 5-10 seconds, which makes sense since you're doing more work. In fact I couldn't hold it for very long..

carpediemracing 

In the past I'd have thought that I should have sat in, let the other work, etc. But now I'm willing to work, even if I don't win. My goal first would be to make the break work, second to win the race.

Don't remember this reply if you race against me.

cdr

shovelhd

I would have attacked as the group slowed with 2 to go. 2 to go's can stick, even in Cat2. 1 to go's, not so much. That said, in the particular scenario you posted, the only way you'll have a chance is if both of you go balls out. Short, hard, pulls, and plan on a short, hard, sprint.

johnybutts

With 2-to go (roughly 6 minutes i guess) what kind of pacing would you attempt?

Fat Boy

~150% ftp pulls would be about right with 100% ftp 'recoveries' would be my guess. It'd be very difficult to do it correctly without blowing up or getting caught.

Voodoo76

I've made that scenario stick several times for a field sprint, (a small group long gone off the front). You need to just go as hard as you can. It's a 100% commitment move.

If the other rider doesn't come around you at some point he either can't or doesn't want to. In either case he's no help to you, ease up or think about it and you are both caught.

shovelhd

Success in that scenario depends more on what the field does than what you and your partner do. If you have teammates up front or the field stays confused, or lazy, or watches inconsequential attacks chase you, your chances are better. I can't put it in terms of ftp as that's a network protocol to me now. I have to learn about all that stuff. In old fart's terms, I would go flat out for 10-12 seconds and signal. Faster than TT pace. If your partner comes around and you can get back on, keep up the reps. Do not make an effort to look back. Look under your shoulder or wait until you approach a turn for a quick glance. Don't feed the pack.

carpediemracing 

Would be an interesting workout in training.

jrennie

Yeah, the time to attack is when the paces slows(2 to go in your instance) not when everyone is at full attention with 1 to go.

How hard do you need to go? harder than the bunch, there is no exact answer to this. Sometimes the other guy in the break is your demise and you would be better off going alone.

If you have tried this strategy several times and it always fails then maybe it isn't your best play. Maybe you are better suited going early or half way into the crit rather than with 1 to go. Maybe your best strategy is to wait for a bunch sprint and have that guy that would be willing to kill it for you make a lead out. You scenario is far to vague to advise your accurately.

Voodoo76

CDR, I think it's a meaningless question. The scenario described, attacking a field with around a K to go, is a 100% move. It's a total anaerobic effort, a little recovery in the middle is meaningless. You are either fast enough or not! Not the time or place for metering effort or thinking about recovery.

carpediemracing 

Wasn't a question necessarily. I was thinking that doing on/off efforts of 150%/100% would make an interesting workout. For me that would be about 375w/250w, based on my best 20 min effort in a couple years. I have a hard time metering my effort between 250w and about 500w - I seem to do 200w (tired) or 600w (fresh). So it's interesting to see numbers in my "uncomfortable" range.

I agree on the 1km to go being a maximal effort, i.e. a WR effort. However, if it's 2km (as stated originally) and it's a two rider move, and one rider decides to forgo the win bit, then it's a bit longer than a pure anaerobic effort.

Personally I'm not good at doing a TTT because my FTP is pretty low. But if I commit and make a big effort, I'll go a much higher pace than a break would otherwise go. The other rider can sit in, recover, and launch when I explode. I know that at the last Bethel race I was following my teammate's wheel at 34 mph and my HR came down about 4 bpm during the leadout. That was enough to buy me a long sprint (won the field sprint and caught 3 of the 4 guys in the break). If I had two guys to lead me out, I think my HR would have dropped more. Sitting on a teammate's wheel at the front of a Cat 3 or 3-4 field is great - unlikely to see a counter-leadout, and for me, I stay on the wheel with bursts of power followed by coasting. So I coast a lot when getting led out; a rider following me would probably do the same.

Pack tactics help too as noted above, of course. In the CT Coast Crit (on the same course), two guys went away, grolby (i.e. our grolby) following a maniacal leadout guy. The leadout guy pulled grolby clear of the field (the leadout's sprinters got gapped and sat up). Grolby did a hard 1 min effort and won the race, well clear of the field. The field had neutralized itself - everyone gunning for the win had "good position" but no one wanted to commit. If the field had jumped 10-15 seconds earlier... but they didn't.

So, my interest in the 150/100 answer was the idea of using those numbers in training (for 4-5 minutes total, about 4k or 2.5 miles).

And although a 1km effort is all out, a 2km effort is a bit different.

cdr

Voodoo76

Got ya. To my point how much were the wheels you were following metering effort? Not much I would guess. I thought the OP was trying to get at some optimum rotation. My opinion/experience was there isn't one, one out of the two riders has enough gas to stay away at the bell or it's not gonna work. He is gonna win. However if it isn't you there is no shame in 2nd. The roll of the dice is who goes with you in that situation more than what you do.

If you want to rotate for a short distance pull thru on the inside of each turn, use the course. Key here is pulling thru not off. Guess that is what I was trying to get across.

carpediemracing 

Yep, we were saying the same thing in different ways.

My leadout guy was going all out - he actually screamed this primal scream as he blew up. It was too early so I yelled at him to keep going lol. I learned later that he's an ex-pro mtb racer, so doing races is kind of not really interesting to him - I think he's done like 3 races this year.

And when I'm getting close to cramping in a race, and it's not near the finish, I'll make a huge effort to try and help someone. Usually it's not really a lot of help, but if I can partially close a gap or something, it's better than nothing. I'll help anyone who I think deserves it - a lone strong rider getting pummeled by a team, a guy who's aggressive and willing to work but missed the crucial move, heck, I'll even help a teammate.

(Usually my teammates are fine without my contributions, and usually in cramp races I don't have teammates or, like last week, he was in a break ahead of me)

I'm still intrigued by doing 5-6 minutes of 100/150% efforts. Even 2-3 minutes - that seems more like it for me. My record minute (recorded in a race) is about 220% of FTP.

cdr

asmallsol

when it slows and bunches up, thats where you have to make an attack, hopefully from around mid pack.

shovelhd

Sign him up.