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Old 09-13-10, 01:23 PM   #1
Hammonjj
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Cervelo: R3 vs S2

Any thoughts? I've been looking at both of these bikes and, I have to admit, the price difference seems to be quite a bit (I'm planning to spend $3500-$4000 on the bike as I already have the wheels). Also, I've heard that the R3 is both stiffer and lighter than the S2. I assume that you could setup either bike to fit roughly the same.

About me: I am a hardcore racer. I rarely go out to just ride, I go out to train. My main focuses are on stage racing (I already have a TT bike FWIW) and hilly road races, but, like any American racer, I do a lot of crits as well.

What I'm really wondering: is the idea of an aero bike really worth it if your the kind of guy who doesn't spend a lot of time in the wind? When I attack, it tends to be to get into a breakaway or at the end of a race. I don't generally go out solo much unless the opportunity is just too good to pass up.

Obviously there will be thorough test rides of each, but I want to get some opinions.
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Old 09-13-10, 01:32 PM   #2
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Why not consider the Fuji SST, the Ridley Noah, or the Felt AR series at the pricepoint?
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Old 09-13-10, 01:35 PM   #3
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I'm not sure the R3 is stiffer, and I am convinced that BB stiffness doesn't make any difference in actual performance. I've ridden very flexy frames (Vitus 979) and stiff ones (R3) and I can't tell a difference in my performance that's not explained by bike weight.

There is a difference in feel however. I actually like the feel of a flexy frame for some riding (standing on long climbs) and a stiff BB for others (hammering up short rises).

The R3, while stiff in the BB, rides pretty well to me. I'm happy for 7 or 8 hour races on it. Other people have different opinions about its comfort. The same is true of the S2- some people say it's harsh, others ride endurance races like the 508 on them.

The S2 is more aero but the benefits are small. They're about 1/2 lb heavier than an R3, which is a fairly small amount unless you're a weight weenie. I don't think the aero or weight differences will make a noticeble difference in your race performance.
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Old 09-13-10, 02:03 PM   #4
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I'm going to play the bf advocate and say If I had $4000 to spend I'd get an S1, a power meter, and some carbon tubs.
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Old 09-13-10, 02:19 PM   #5
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Any thoughts?
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Old 09-13-10, 02:20 PM   #6
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s1s are going away, and cervelo has none in stock. store stock is it. if you want an r series, wait for the 2011, much improved, unless you get a sweetheart deal on this years. i like my s series a lot, i find it plenty stiff. but the r series is sligthly lighter, slightly more compliant as well. an ultegra s2 and r3 should be the same price, btw.
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Old 09-13-10, 02:22 PM   #7
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s1s are going away, and cervelo has none in stock. store stock is it. if you want an r series, wait for the 2011, much improved, unless you get a sweetheart deal on this years. i like my s series a lot, i find it plenty stiff. but the r series is sligthly lighter, slightly more compliant as well. an ultegra s2 and r3 should be the same price, btw.
No they're not. http://liberty-bikes.fr/LB/wp-conten...08/00146E.jpeg

The S2 and R3, at the Ultegra level, are the same price. I went back and forth between the two, and chose the S2 because I preferred the aero frame over the weight savings. Competitive cyclist has a good video comparing the two.
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Old 09-13-10, 02:29 PM   #8
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Old 09-13-10, 02:31 PM   #9
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I'm going to play the bf advocate and say If I had $4000 to spend I'd get an S1, a power meter, and some carbon tubs.
I've already got the PM and Carbon hoops!

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an ultegra s2 and r3 should be the same price, btw.
Cervelo's website has the S2 starting at 4k for Ultegra and the R3 at 3.2k with Ultegra as well.
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Old 09-13-10, 02:31 PM   #10
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I've already got the PM and Carbon hoops!



Cervelo's website has the S2 starting at 4k for Ultegra and the R3 at 3.2k with Ultegra as well.
The 2010 R models have been discounted, while the S's have not. You're right on that one.
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Old 09-13-10, 02:36 PM   #11
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The real question is if you can afford to replace the bike should something happen. Do you have a backup race bike and are you planning on keeping whatever you currently have?
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Old 09-13-10, 02:41 PM   #12
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The real question is if you can afford to replace the bike should something happen. Do you have a backup race bike and are you planning on keeping whatever you currently have?
Yes, this is why I'm not looking at a nicer bike. Racing has it's risks and so I've counted for these in my budget.
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Old 09-13-10, 02:47 PM   #13
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The 2010 R models have been discounted, while the S's have not. You're right on that one.
I'm guessing the new R5 caused the demand for R3 to drop so that's why the discount on both the R3 and R3SL
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Old 09-13-10, 02:49 PM   #14
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I'm guessing the new R5 caused the demand for R3 to drop so that's why the discount on both the R3 and R3SL
I assumed it was due to the fact that the R series had more drastic changes for 2011 than the S. But who knows. Stock is low on 2010s anyway.
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Old 09-13-10, 03:02 PM   #15
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If you're buying this for next year, wait a week. Something may pop up at Interbike next week.

As for the other stuff, I think BB rigidity helps a lot in those short intense efforts. I much prefer a stiff BB. I also do rides up to 6+ hours and my bike (built to emphasize stiffness) is fine for that. Fork and tires determine a lot of the comfort of a bike.

Aero road bikes... I used to be convinced that was the way to go. And I'm trying to think of a way to get an aero road bike next, but the emphasis is really on hiding the cables to make the thing easier to clean, with aero "benefits" an untested and unprovable thing. However, ultimately, when it comes down to it, those things don't make as much difference as your position on the bike etc. So although it's nice to get 1% or whatever from the bike, it's much better to get 10% by changing your position. This could be temporarily, like when bridging a gap you hunker down more, or semi-permanent, like using Scott Rake or Cane Creek Speed bars, or permanent, by altering position. In other words, I'm no longer sold on the aero concept, although I'd avoid a super large tube bike too.

cdr
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Old 09-13-10, 03:54 PM   #16
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... with aero "benefits" an untested and unprovable thing.
With the voluminous data from both wind tunnels and field tests available, I'm not sure how you can say this. That the reduction in drag from a good aero frame compared to a standard round tube one is comparable to the benefit from a good set of aero wheels compared to a standard 32 spoke box section rim has been known for years. The aero benefits have been both measured and proved. Now if your talking about the significance of these benefits, that's a completely different subject.
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Old 09-13-10, 03:56 PM   #17
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So although it's nice to get 1% or whatever from the bike, it's much better to get 10% by changing your position. This could be temporarily, like when bridging a gap you hunker down more, or semi-permanent, like using Scott Rake or Cane Creek Speed bars, or permanent, by altering position.
And again the usual false dichotomy rears its head. Because we all know you can't hunker down or use Scott Rakes on an aero frame.
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Old 09-13-10, 03:59 PM   #18
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If you're buying this for next year, wait a week. Something may pop up at Interbike next week.

As for the other stuff, I think BB rigidity helps a lot in those short intense efforts. I much prefer a stiff BB. I also do rides up to 6+ hours and my bike (built to emphasize stiffness) is fine for that. Fork and tires determine a lot of the comfort of a bike.

Aero road bikes... I used to be convinced that was the way to go. And I'm trying to think of a way to get an aero road bike next, but the emphasis is really on hiding the cables to make the thing easier to clean, with aero "benefits" an untested and unprovable thing. However, ultimately, when it comes down to it, those things don't make as much difference as your position on the bike etc. So although it's nice to get 1% or whatever from the bike, it's much better to get 10% by changing your position. This could be temporarily, like when bridging a gap you hunker down more, or semi-permanent, like using Scott Rake or Cane Creek Speed bars, or permanent, by altering position. In other words, I'm no longer sold on the aero concept, although I'd avoid a super large tube bike too.

cdr
anything that will pop up has popped at eurobike. the r3 got discounted to make room for the revised r3 and non ca r5. the s1 and p1 are both done. what has been made are all that will be made. s2 and s3 are just paint changes. the r3 gets the new geometry shared with the r5 and r5ca as well as bbright. the rs comes down in price and gets spec'd with rival to become the new entry level cervelo now that the s1 is gone.

the s1 IS gone. this isn't speculation. that s1 with 6700 may be a euro only thing they did with surplus framesets they have left over there.
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Old 09-13-10, 04:00 PM   #19
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anything that will pop up has popped at eurobike. the r3 got discounted to make room for the revised r3 and non ca r5. the s1 and p1 are both done. what has been made are all that will be made. s2 and s3 are just paint changes. the r3 gets the new geometry shared with the r5 and r5ca as well as bbright. the rs comes down in price and gets spec'd with rival to become the new entry level cervelo now that the s1 is gone.

the s1 IS gone. this isn't speculation.
No it's not. I posted the link to the 2011 catalog showing it...

Again.

http://liberty-bikes.fr/LB/wp-conten...08/00146E.jpeg
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Old 09-13-10, 04:25 PM   #20
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I assumed it was due to the fact that the R series had more drastic changes for 2011 than the S. But who knows. Stock is low on 2010s anyway.
The S has only one change; paint.

OP, they are both great bikes. I don't think you could go wrong with either one. Some local shops are heavily discounting both models, especially the Ultegra equiped ones.

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Old 09-13-10, 04:56 PM   #21
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And again the usual false dichotomy rears its head. Because we all know you can't hunker down or use Scott Rakes on an aero frame.
? I don't understand.

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With the voluminous data from both wind tunnels and field tests available, I'm not sure how you can say this. That the reduction in drag from a good aero frame compared to a standard round tube one is comparable to the benefit from a good set of aero wheels compared to a standard 32 spoke box section rim has been known for years. The aero benefits have been both measured and proved. Now if your talking about the significance of these benefits, that's a completely different subject.
I haven't seen data supporting the idea that aero frames are worth a set of (good) aero wheels. However, you're right, I wasn't wording things exactly right. Relating to significance, I think that aero frames won't make as much a difference as other things. First is the rider's position, hence that 1% number I threw out there, versus a 10% for something more significant. The numbers are made up and fictional, but the proportion is meant to be significant.

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anything that will pop up has popped at eurobike.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I wasn't thinking Cervelo, I was thinking any other companies. A US company may wait for Interbike. Unlikely, maybe, but if they don't sell overseas or they're a small company, it's likely that they'll try and make a splash domestically. I'm curious if Felt or some other companies have something to show/say.

I know there are things that I haven't seen reported at Eurobike that I'd consider somewhat significant from companies already featured heavily in articles about Eurobike, although they have nothing to do with buying an aero road frame. I'm hoping there are some more things out there that we'll learn about at Interbike.
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Old 09-13-10, 05:05 PM   #22
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? I don't understand.
Let's say hunkering down lowers CdA 0.02m2 (assumed value). If for a rider in a normal riding position on a standard frame is 0.27 and on an aero frame is 0.24 (again assumed values), then when hunkered down the CdA is 0.25 and 0.22 for the two cases respectively. In other words the benefit from hunkering down can be achieved regardless of the frame under the rider and the benefit from the aero frame persists regardless of position. Similarly for the rakes, change in position, aero wheels, etc. The benefit from the aero frame is not off-set by improving position or using more aero equipment.
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Old 09-13-10, 05:24 PM   #23
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To the OP, Aero trumps weight for every race in Colorado. There are way more s3's than r3's in the p12 fields. In fact, I'd argue that the s3 is the most popular bike among p12ers that aren't riding team bikes. Get the S2.
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Old 09-13-10, 06:09 PM   #24
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It's obvious, s3
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Old 09-13-10, 06:11 PM   #25
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No it's not. I posted the link to the 2011 catalog showing it...

Again.

http://liberty-bikes.fr/LB/wp-conten...08/00146E.jpeg
perhaps a french catalog. the us will have no s1 for 2011 in the usa, and has zero available in s1 completes with ultegra 6700 or force, or s1 in framesets in any size. i work at a cervelo dealer.
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