skydive69

Does anyone know is there is a specific rule that prohibits the use of large carbon spoked wheels such as the HED3 in USAC sanctioned road races and criteriums? Thanks.

Nate552

Looks like it.
Rule 7J shall apply to road categories B, C, D, and E for the 2010 year, and subsequently apply to all categories in 2011.
7J2. Wheels

(a) Wheels used in competition in all Collegiate Road Events must conform
with UCI mass-start legal regulations. The UCI maintains a website with the
information of approved wheels.


But I've raced with H3's in a road race, and so has a teammate of mine.

Nate552

List of UCI legal wheels:

https://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/ge...kyNTc&LangId=1

skydive69

I found that after posting. Apparently 16 spoke wheels is the minimum acceptable under UCI rules for mass starts and of course the HED3 is not on the list of accepted HED wheels. I've raced with a sleeveless jersey, but it was something I got away with and was not in compliance with USAC published rules. Probably that was the same situation with racing with the HEDs. I asked a world champion prior to posting who is really into the rules and he didn't know the answer so I would guess many promoters are happy to get your entry fee and don't particularly want to play police man.

Flatballer

That's collegiate. They have different rules. I don't think the USAC has yet outlawed tri-spokes or discs.

See rule 1M, page 58. It never mentions anything about UCI rules, except for national and NRC events. Not sure why collegiate has the rule now but most USAC races don't, but whatever.

You could technically run a disc and a tri-spoke in a USAC race if you wanted to.

1M. Bicycles
1M1. Bicycles used in competition must be propelled solely
by the rider's legs and shall have the following characteristics:
(a) Dimensions. Bicycles may be no more than 2 meters
long and 75 cm wide, except that tandems may be up to 3
meters long
(b) There may be no protective shield, fairing, or other
device on any part of the bicycle, which has the effect of
reducing air resistance except that spoke covers may be used
(c) Wheels may be made with spokes or solid construction.
No wheel may contain special mechanisms to store and
release energy
(d) The handlebar ends shall be solidly plugged and
attachments thereto shall be fashioned in such a way as to
minimize danger without impairing steering. Handlebars used
for steering with ends, features, or attachments that extend
forward or upward or that provide support for other than the
rider's hands are permitted only in time trial and pursuit
events (not in Team Sprint); however, attachments that point
upward on the brakehoods of road bicycles are allowed if the
distance between them is greater than 25 cm (9.8 inches).
[disqualification] 52
(e) Bicycles must meet current UCI technical regulations at
events that select 17-18, U23 and elite riders for international
competition or national teams. All bicycles used in National
Championships (for age 17 and older riders) and NRC races
must comply with the current UCI regulations
(f) Bicycles commonly known as recumbent may not be
raced in USA Cycling races unless there is a separate race for
this category of bicycle, and then may be used only in that
category.
(g) A mass start bicycle is a road or track bicycle that is
legal in all events within the road or track discipline, rather
than a bicycle that is restricted to particular events. As an
example, a bicycle with handlebars offering forearm support
is not a mass start bicycle.
(h) Time trial events may restrict the competitors to mass-
start bicycles in one or more classes, provided that the
restriction is stated in the race announcement and technical
guide. This includes time trials in stage races.
(i) A Single Speed is any type of bicycle possessing only one
rear cog and only one front chainring and with no means of
altering the gear ratio in any way for the duration of the race.

carleton

That rule is only for Collegiate Time Trials because (I think...I'm sure that) folks complained that the average college student can't afford aero bikes, aero wheels, and aero gear and were being out-gunned by the few that could. So, they basically said, "Race your mass start bikes in the time trials. No aerobars either."

Personally, I don't have a problem with that.

Flatballer

that's correct. And I'm also glad they did it. Collegiate Bs don't need to be riding $6k TT rigs.

skydive69

Interesting, thanks guys. I'm amazed then that I have never seen a pair of HED3s in a RR or Crit. My significant other used a set to set a PR and win a state TT championship, and I love the way they look. Not going to give up my Zipp 999 set for TTs however, although I believe the HED3 is probably faster than the Zipp 808 that I run on the front - especially if one believes HED's wind tunnel tests.

ZeCanon

The collegiate rule is dumb as hell, at least for the A's. Anyone in the A's who is serious about TT's has a bike.

The teams that can afford to modify TT bikes with drop bars and run 1080's are still going to have a massive advantage with no decrease in cost.

For B's downward I think it's great. But collegiate A's should prepare you for high-level summer racing, which involves TT bikes.

Flatballer

yeah, I was never a fan of the rule for the A's. Most A's are sponsored anyway and getting a good break on their stuff.

echappist

what team/teams might that be? i don't think any in the ECCC could pull of that sort of stuff (buying things outright). Though granted, for the ECCC championships, we had one of our sponsor lend us 404, bontrager aelous 5, and american classic 58 for free for the weekend.

Flatballer

by teams, he means individuals. At least that's how it is in the ACCC. Other than some teams getting good deals on gear (WVU, Zipp and Cdale) I don't know of any teams that get money from the club for bikes.

Most of the A's on my team had a rear disc and a TT bike. It's not all that expensive to get a cheap TT bike and disc, then throw a deep front on.

ZeCanon

The teams that are really in the running will find the equipment. Borrow, sponsorships, etc.

For example: all our guys have TT bikes. We're going to run narrow as hell drop bars on them, super deep wheels, etc. Position will be as close as possible to a regular TT position - and still far more aero than anyone can comfortably get on a road bike.

The kids who were doing the Nats TT on road bikes before still will. The kids who were doing them on TT bikes before will just modify them. Advantage is still there. Only now you'll see lots of Invisible Aero Bars, making the TTT even more dangerous.

echappist

haha, i guess that paying only $250/month for rent doesn't hurt, either
but if only the rider pulling is doing the IAB, how dangerous can it really be? I guess it may be a different story if the course is pock-marked full of chipseal

carpediemracing 

I think I had managed to get down to about 190 for this one, in 2004. I started the Series at 198-200 after hitting 215+ in the off season (my mom died the previous August and I hadn't been doing much training for 2-3 years).

I still have the wheels but don't use them for a few reasons - Shimano, heavy, bent braking surface. The latter is probably the biggest factor since I get a nice "thunk thunk thunk" when I brake. I got the wheels from a teammate after he double flatted TUBULARS hitting a huge pothole at 45+ mph... the impact bent both rims too. I got most of the dents out using channel locks.

HED should be redoing their HED3s - it's the only wheelset that doesn't use their "wide" theory. They deepened them up for 2011 I think.



I was using my Saeco kit just because. And, no, I'm not wearing a jacket under all that. It's all me baby!

cdr

Grumpy McTrumpy

I've re-shaped H3 rims with a ball peen hammer and anvil

curiouskid55

Wouldn't the ride quality of a 3 spoke wheel be a liitle harsh after 50-60 miles?

Flatballer

people use them for Ironman triathlons, so I'd imagine it can't be that bad. A disc is no picnic either, but it's not that bad.

Frunkin

Marion here in the MWCCC is sponsored by Zipp and Specialized. You can bet that their top guys are gonna be riding 1080's for all the TT events, and probably transitions with drop bars like Ze was saying. The rule has it's good and bad points but I don't really think it's going to change much.

Grumpy McTrumpy

let's see...

I did a team time trial this year which was 40 miles, plus warmup and cooldown, so closer to 60. Disc rear and H3 front. Very comfortable.

Oh, and I ride to TTs a lot. One of them is a 12.5mi TT but it is far from the house so it ends up being 50 or so. Also no problem.

curiouskid55

What frame grumpy?

Nate552

Now that it's 2011, anyone ran into a problem using a H3 for a mass start race?

Flatballer

By all categories they meant all collegiate categories, A-E. Still no rule for regular USAC stuff that doesn't have to conform to UCI.

Grumpy McTrumpy

slice Hi-mod

Nate552

I thought that's what it meant but I wasn't sure. It does look like you might not be able to use one at a Championship race.
In one rulebook (For Championship Events) https://www.usacycling.org/forms/uci/...egulations.pdf
it says: "For mass start races if the wheel does not pass the test of being “traditional” it must be
specifically approved by the UCI. The regulations define a “traditional wheel” as any
wheel with a rim with any cross section dimension no larger than 2.5 cm and with a
minimum of 16 metallic spokes, whose maximum cross section does not exceed 2.4 mm." Granted, I'm not doing a Championship Event this weekend, but over zealous refs make me nervous.
The UCI list for non-traditional wheels does not include H3's. But I'm not doing