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  1. #1
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    training philosophies ????

    Hi everyone. I have a few training questions on different philosophies. I have a strong educational background and experience in strength training. I spent 10 years as a top level powerlifter. I've been looking into different styles of endurance training with particular interest in cycling. It seems most train using block periodization. This is very similar to powerlifters. I never had much success in powerlifting using block periodization. I started to have huge improvements following a conjugate system of training. This system trains the different elements every week, year round. So you would train for max strength, hypertrophy, and explosiveness every week all year.

    Would this method work for cycling? Could you train with one strength ride (hills), one speed ride, and one long ride every week year round? You could even prioritize different cycles where you still train all elements but add an extra day of training for the system you want to prioritize. For example 2 long rides or 2 strength rides per week. This would leave you with 3 recovery rides per week as well. Would this work for endurance sports?

    QUESTION 2. For those of you who do follow block periodization where you train with base miles in the winter and focus on speed as you get near competition, have you ever reversed it? It seems to me that speed would be harder to gain then endurance (or is this wrong). So would it be beneficial to train for strength and speed through the winter months, then increase your endurance as the competition gets closer? This would also seem to be an advantage for cold weather riders as well. Less time on the bike when it's below 30 and day light is limited.

    I'm just curious. I really enjoy the scientific end of training as much as the actual physical training itself. I'm always reading and researching, but experience usually trumps book knowledge. I don't have the experience yet so I'm trying to learn from those who do. Thanks in advance for those who take the time to answer.

  2. #2
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    Endurance base is critical if you want to go fast later... the more endurance you have, the more speed intervals you'll be able to complete as race season nears. I subscribe to periodization via TSS rather than hours (ref- Coggan/Hunter's book on "Racing and Training with a Power Meter".

    Endurance during race season is difficult nor it is desirable because it will wear you down eventually... racing provides enough endurance stimulation (of course, this depends on the type of racing you do). Most will tell you that you need to "ride lots" and this cannot be overstated when it comes to new cyclists especially if you wish to race for the first time... ride lots alone and in groups... this sport favors skilled riders more often than raw power (not always, but you get my drift).

    Crit specialists can get away with almost no base training... just all speed work... its not pretty but it ll work if you have the genetic make-up of a sprinter/pursuiter.

  3. #3
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotti View Post
    It seems to me that speed would be harder to gain then endurance (or is this wrong).
    For most people, fast comes fast, and slow comes slow. It varies as to how much base folks have, but that's the general rule.

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    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    that helps.

  5. #5
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    You must incorporate an Eastern (coast) Philosophy...according to gsteinb this involves many many hours on the bike.

  6. #6
    Ninja don't wear flipflop king-tony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    For most people, fast comes fast, and slow comes slow. It varies as to how much base folks have, but that's the general rule.


    I like it. I am going to steal this and never give you credit for it.

  7. #7
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    What most of the above have said. Plus, I find it better to do strength and strength-endurance work in winter, as I'll pare that down in summer and actually get muscularly weaker as I get faster on long rides. But when spring comes, I find the conjugate system you mention to work best.

    As others said, speed comes quick once you have the fundamentals down: strength, neuromuscular coordination for efficient pedaling, and endurance. I work on those three things in the winter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    As others said, speed comes quick once you have the fundamentals down: strength, neuromuscular coordination for efficient pedaling, and endurance. I work on those three things in the winter.
    My God.

  9. #9
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    I've read that some track cyclists apply Reverse Periodization with success.

  10. #10
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by efficiency View Post
    I've read that some track cyclists apply Reverse Periodization with success.
    Track is a different animal given that most events are very short, and the long events are very short relative to even crit racing. You really don't need base at all, instead you need to hone in on watts/duration or sprint power depending on the discipline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    I'll pare that down in summer and actually get muscularly weaker as I get faster on long rides
    That's pretty much the case for me also in that my peak sprint wattage drops as I get further into the racing season. The compensation is that I can still crank out a pretty good number for a pretty good duration at the end of a pretty long/hard race.

    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    My God.
    Vishnu? Yahweh? Ishvar? Allah? Thor? Jim Jones? Hale Bop? Seriously, we need to know so we can use your world view as a vehicle of perspective and insight into your posts.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-04-10 at 10:14 PM.

  11. #11
    Writin' stuff ZeCanon's Avatar
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    Use of the word speed can be misleading. It's power. Endurance is more power for more time. But it's still power.

    There are so many systems in play that using two terms, like "speed' and "endurance" (power and power over time) is useless. If by speed you mean short-term, super-threshold power, then no you should not do that work prior to base-type endurance work. Those systems train up fast but you lose much of the adaptation even quicker.
    Velo Magazine/VeloNews.com tech guy get in touch or hit me on the tweeter @CaleyFretz

  12. #12
    meow bostongarden's Avatar
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    Let's agree with all the statements about base building and such. Another element is to train in a way such that you will have enough will/discipline/pleasure/etc to get on the bike. If riding a ton of miles right now -- taking into account all factors (e.g., weather) -- works for you then do it; else, consider a different plan. I'm not saying one must love every minute of every ride, or necessarily every ride; but, at the end of the day or from a 30,000 foot view perspective, riding should feel good/worth-it to you in some way or for some objective.

  13. #13
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post

    Vishnu? Yahweh? Ishvar? Allah? Thor? Jim Jones? Hale Bop? Seriously, we need to know so we can use your world view as a vehicle of perspective and insight into your posts.
    This made me laugh.

  14. #14
    . botto's Avatar
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    i train, therefor i am.

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    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    Training is Bunk.

  16. #16
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    training is for wussy.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  17. #17
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
    Training is Bunk.
    Bunk is where you sleep.

  18. #18
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    eat, sleep, train, race, repeat

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Bunk is where you sleep.
    Or who you sleep with. http://www.hbo.com/#/the-wire/cast-a...and/index.html

  20. #20
    meow bostongarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
    eat, sleep, train, race, repeat
    I never saw the movie based on that eat race love book

  21. #21
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    I think of it as a pyramid going from general workouts to specific. Base is where I target building my Threshold power as high as it can go. This includes tons of isopower threshold intervals ranging from 20-30+ minutes in length. Workouts generally fall no less than an IF of .85 unless it's a long group ride. After that period I start to work on building up my VO2Max power. Lots of 5x5min intervals with SST or Tempo thrown in as well. Long rides during this period incorporate threshold, and VO2 efforts. Then it's Anaerobic Capacity with 2min intervals and 1min intervals. This is where it's expected for my CTL to level off or drop slightly. Long rides incorporate threshold, VO2, and some Anerobic Capacity. After all of this you're ready to do race specific work. Replicate the efforts of your goal races are closely as possible; there are no race day miracles. If your races consist of riding hard for 2 hours then going for a break and then finally attacking your partners to for the W then that's what you need to do during your training sessions.

    Train hard and rest hard.
    Last edited by semaj; 12-05-10 at 10:42 PM.

  22. #22
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Bunk



  23. #23
    impressive member badhat's Avatar
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    just a humble m_____f_____ with a big ___ ____

  24. #24
    impressive member badhat's Avatar
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    it seems to me that base is useful regardless of the length of your event.

    if the goal of base/endurance training is to (generally speaking) raise the redline (FTP) where effort becomes unsustainable, crit racing still benefits from this, cuz if your redline is higher, you burn few matches for any given effort than the next dude if your base is better.

  25. #25
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badhat View Post
    it seems to me that base is useful regardless of the length of your event.
    Some of the stuff I read says otherwise, but honestly, I've found it to be a damn near universal truth. Not that it's the perfect way to train all the time, but just that it's never a bad way to train.

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