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  1. #1
    Senior Member sabazel's Avatar
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    Frozen by numbers...

    A lot of them.

    On another thread I talked about the skin calipers I had done, both time from the same kinesiology professor at the local university. One at the end of Sept from a 7 site test had 17.75%. The one I just had last week was 15.99%.

    My weight has gone up from 119 to 123.

    My pants from last winter don't fit because I used to be a long distance runner. Thinner, but definitely not in as good of shape as I am now and a completely different build, so I can't go by the "how do your pants fit" theory.

    For a little bit more background, at the time of my first set of calipers I had been building base and doing some temp work with a coach I started working with in early august. After my calipers, I began my AT build training (no, we're not training "for" anything, he just wanted to see how I respond, we're just playing around).

    I have NEVER worked as hard at anything physically as I'm working on the bike with these efforts.

    I don't even know what I'm looking for from posting this, really. It's just that I've seen a lot of threads where people say that 4 pounds of weight gain can't possibly be all muscle, but it's clearly not fat, and I don't want to change anything in my routine if it's all going well. Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing?
    "What is a Tiagra? Is that like a Liger?"

  2. #2
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    I gained leg muscle through cycling (and weight lifting) when I was younger. This time around I gained ass muscle (lots of climbing, not so much weight lifting).
    Cycling uses fewer muscles than running, and they respond to the training stress by getting stronger and often larger. Compare the legs of top pro cyclists and runners.

    Remember that in the end it's not the numbers that are important. They're just a means for getting a handle on what's going on.

  3. #3
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    What are you trying to accomplish?
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  4. #4
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    It sounds like you've added some muscle to the legs, butt and possibly lower back.

    If you're leaner just accept it as a physiological response to changing sports.

    If you like the results you're seeing on the bike then don't change a thing.
    BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
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  5. #5
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabazel View Post
    A lot of them.

    On another thread I talked about the skin calipers I had done, both time from the same kinesiology professor at the local university. One at the end of Sept from a 7 site test had 17.75%. The one I just had last week was 15.99%.

    My weight has gone up from 119 to 123.

    My pants from last winter don't fit because I used to be a long distance runner. Thinner, but definitely not in as good of shape as I am now and a completely different build, so I can't go by the "how do your pants fit" theory.

    For a little bit more background, at the time of my first set of calipers I had been building base and doing some temp work with a coach I started working with in early august. After my calipers, I began my AT build training (no, we're not training "for" anything, he just wanted to see how I respond, we're just playing around).

    I have NEVER worked as hard at anything physically as I'm working on the bike with these efforts.

    I don't even know what I'm looking for from posting this, really. It's just that I've seen a lot of threads where people say that 4 pounds of weight gain can't possibly be all muscle, but it's clearly not fat, and I don't want to change anything in my routine if it's all going well. Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing?
    get a tape measure and measure your waist. You won't get an exact BF% out of it, but you can track fat gain/loss using it.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
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    I went from a very competitive runner (averaged 2500 miles a year) to cycling and tri's and my legs got larger. My weight also went up a few pounds and I assume it was due to more leg mass.
    You're just trying to start an argument to show how smart you are.

  7. #7
    Senior Member sabazel's Avatar
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    I'm trying to accomplish getting into the best possible shape my body can be in without being obsessive about it. Though I guess if I'm bothering to get skin calipers and worrying about a few pounds, I've already blown that goal.

    Basically, I want to be a local level demon. Win local crits, move up the cats, ride with the big boys on the group rides, but not even think about getting into a higher level than that.

    Big fish small pond goals.

    I think what I'm going to do is Goodwill all of my clothes (shorts too, since over the summer I wasn't doing what I'm doing now) and get a new lower body wardrobe for my body type now.

    And as for getting a tape measure, I don't think that's as good of an indication with women, since we keep our belly/thigh fat with more resistance than men do. In fact, ALL of the fat I lost on the calipers was upper body. The belly and thigh measurements went down only slightly. Oh the joys. I lost fat on my tricep. Yay.
    "What is a Tiagra? Is that like a Liger?"

  8. #8
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabazel View Post
    And as for getting a tape measure, I don't think that's as good of an indication with women, since we keep our belly/thigh fat with more resistance than men do. In fact, ALL of the fat I lost on the calipers was upper body. The belly and thigh measurements went down only slightly. Oh the joys. I lost fat on my tricep. Yay.
    opps, didn't realize you are a member of the fairer sex.

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure that for both men & women, belly fat is the most resistant to change (i.e. first to go on, last to get out)

    I'm pretty sure that there are some statistically accurate models out there that makes you input a bunch of measurements (say, upper arm, waist, hip, and thigh) and generate some sort of a number out of that. But then again, nothing is accurate as a dunking if you can afford to do one on a regular basis.

  9. #9
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    You're already in a decent bodyfat % range for women.

    I don't worry that much... I use my own pinch test (which I always fail) and just focus on training right and racing smart (which includes avoiding events that don't suit my strengths).

    Eat right, and don't worry too much about it
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  10. #10
    Senior Member dbikingman's Avatar
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    Just accept the fact that your too fat to race and you're just using this thread to justify buying new clothes.
    WTB SPD pedals style???
    "I've been dropped a lot of times, but it's never been because of my bike." DXchulo

  11. #11
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabazel View Post

    On another thread I talked about the skin calipers I had done, both time from the same kinesiology professor at the local university. One at the end of Sept from a 7 site test had 17.75%. The one I just had last week was 15.99%.
    A caliper test reported to two decimal places?!

    Sorry, but your 1.76% "change" is not statistically significant...

  12. #12
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbikingman View Post
    Just accept the fact that your too fat to race and you're just using this thread to justify buying new clothes.
    you got some cajones to intimate that a lady is fat
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    A caliper test reported to two decimal places?!

    Sorry, but your 1.76% "change" is not statistically significant...
    you really had to get that off of your mind...

  13. #13
    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbikingman View Post
    Just accept the fact that your too fat to race and you're just using this thread to justify buying new clothes.
    Yikes!!!
    15% bf for a woman is very good (actually classified as very low)
    My wife has been sub 10% which is unhealthy.
    If you're slamming her like that I would hope that you, as a male, are 7-9% which is defined as very low.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  14. #14
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
    Yikes!!!
    15% bf for a woman is very good (actually classified as very low)
    My wife has been sub 10% which is unhealthy.
    If you're slamming her like that I would hope that you, as a male, are 7-9% which is defined as very low.
    i know the 33 has been through this with you, but what you mentioned above is worthless without pics

  15. #15
    gmt Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
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    when I saw the BF% and height correlated to the running background I assumed "female".

    and I think those people in "those threads" were wrong. the four pounds are either muscle, or you weighed yourself at opposite peaks in your gut cycle.

    people are often dead wrong on this forum. They will defend their right to be wrong until death if necessary.

  16. #16
    Senior Member sabazel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    A caliper test reported to two decimal places?!

    Sorry, but your 1.76% "change" is not statistically significant...
    Well, since I have read outs from both tests, and all of the sites went down with the calipers, and the gentleman who did them is the head of the department and has his PhD and has been doing these tests for about 40 years, I think I'll take his word over some random guy from BF. Thanks.

    If the only significant changes were those that are 3-4% in difference, then elite athletes wouldn't sweat over a 7 versus 9% difference. Which they do.
    "What is a Tiagra? Is that like a Liger?"

  17. #17
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabazel View Post
    Well, since I have read outs from both tests, and all of the sites went down with the calipers, and the gentleman who did them is the head of the department and has his PhD and has been doing these tests for about 40 years, I think I'll take his word over some random guy from BF. Thanks.

    If the only significant changes were those that are 3-4% in difference, then elite athletes wouldn't sweat over a 7 versus 9% difference. Which they do.
    Determining body fat using calipers relies on correlations. To imagine a correlation is accurate to 4 significant figures is, well, disingenuous. I don't know how precise the measurement is at 7 locations, but I guarantee it's not 4 sig-figs.

    Additionally, statistically significant and significant are not the same thing.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

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    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    Discussion on accuracy of bf calipers:

    http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com...tcalipers.html

  19. #19
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    Did I miss it or is there anything in this thread about racing?
    I'm the world's forgotten boy. The one who's searchin', searchin' to destroy.

  20. #20
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabazel View Post
    I'm trying to accomplish getting into the best possible shape my body can be in without being obsessive about it. Though I guess if I'm bothering to get skin calipers and worrying about a few pounds, I've already blown that goal.

    Basically, I want to be a local level demon. Win local crits, move up the cats, ride with the big boys on the group rides, but not even think about getting into a higher level than that.

    Big fish small pond goals.

    I think what I'm going to do is Goodwill all of my clothes (shorts too, since over the summer I wasn't doing what I'm doing now) and get a new lower body wardrobe for my body type now.

    And as for getting a tape measure, I don't think that's as good of an indication with women, since we keep our belly/thigh fat with more resistance than men do. In fact, ALL of the fat I lost on the calipers was upper body. The belly and thigh measurements went down only slightly. Oh the joys. I lost fat on my tricep. Yay.
    Quote Originally Posted by mollusk View Post
    Did I miss it or is there anything in this thread about racing?
    There's a sentence. I think it belongs here though. Especially since the chances of getting anything useful out of this thread in certain other subforums is about nil.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  21. #21
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I'll add 8-10lbs during the first month alone of heavy weight lifting in the winter. Some of this is muscle mass some is increased blood volume. Thighs went from 67 to 74cm from October til March last winter. Jeans were fitting kinda tight!

    Then when racing started and heavy lifted tapered, the effect was reversed.

    EDIT: To put things into perspective: I'm 6'1", 235-250lbs with the build of a (ex) football player...heavy on the "ex" hahaha.
    Last edited by carleton; 12-14-10 at 08:09 PM.

  22. #22
    runnin' down a dream edbikebabe's Avatar
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    My weight goes up, my weight goes down. As long as performance is improving I don't sweat it to much.

  23. #23
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabazel View Post
    Well, since I have read outs from both tests, and all of the sites went down with the calipers, and the gentleman who did them is the head of the department and has his PhD and has been doing these tests for about 40 years, I think I'll take his word over some random guy from BF. Thanks.

    If the only significant changes were those that are 3-4% in difference, then elite athletes wouldn't sweat over a 7 versus 9% difference. Which they do.
    At your weight, 0.01% of a change would be 2/10 of an ounce of fat detected. That's pretty small.

    The quick test of accuracy would be to execute the full measurement protocol three times the same day and see how close the results are. My guess is that it will not come out to the same numbers down to the forth digit. At any rate, this could give you a rough margin of error. I'd be surprised if the head of the dept hasn't already done this, but if not, he'd probably be interested in the result.

    In general though, I think that developing your new muscle groups is probably a big part of the weight gain. Not all of that will be muscle, as I'd imagine that the same hunger/food intake ratio would gain you up to the same fat% to support the new muscle as you had to support the original muscle.

    As it pertains to racing, you have a lot bigger fish to fry right now, being new to the sport. 4 lbs is fairly significant at your weight, but it's not going to make as big of a difference on the bike as it did running unless you're doing a lot of climbing. Being 119 lbs is not as important as having the threshold, the matches, and the explosives when needed. Having more power for the flats and the wind is not a bad thing. Don't look for a weight goal, but instead focus on being healthy and trim. You have to fuel your training and not get depressed outside your training. Stay healthy and happy and rip their legs off on race day at 123 lbs or 125 lbs or wherever you end up with a healthy diet.
    Last edited by waterrockets; 12-15-10 at 07:25 AM.

  24. #24
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabazel View Post
    Well, since I have read outs from both tests, and all of the sites went down with the calipers, and the gentleman who did them is the head of the department and has his PhD and has been doing these tests for about 40 years, I think I'll take his word over some random guy from BF. Thanks.

    If the only significant changes were those that are 3-4% in difference, then elite athletes wouldn't sweat over a 7 versus 9% difference. Which they do.
    Believe whatever you want; but don’t use an appeal to authority (he has a phd he must be right) or attempt to discredit me (some random guy on BF) in order to perpetuate your misguided beliefs. Go consult the literature (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed) and come back with empirical evidence.

    Secondly, I didn’t say that it’s impossible to accurately measure body fat. DEXA, CT, hydrostatic weighing are at least an order of magnitude better than your skin fold estimations.

    If you are going to measure something first understand the meaning and limitations of those measurements before you become “frozen” by them. If this is too hard stick to lucky charms and other malarkey “elite athletes” sweat over.

    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    The quick test of accuracy would be to execute the full measurement protocol three times the same day and see how close the results are. My guess is that it will not come out to the same numbers down to the forth digit. At any rate, this could give you a rough margin of error. I'd be surprised if the head of the dept hasn't already done this, but if not, he'd probably be interested in the result.
    That, at best, measures single-analyst single-day precision; it says nothing about accuracy.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  25. #25
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    +1 to "You've probably just gained muscle weight. Don't worry about it."

    Sounds like you're getting fit!

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