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  1. #1
    Senior Member Smallguy's Avatar
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    long base rides and event length....what is necessary for optimal performance?

    I was reading the following article

    http://www.peaksware.com/articles/cy...joe-friel.aspx

    although I do not have a power meter I found it interesting that Joe Talks about tailoring your ride length to the types of events you will race in

    see below

    "How long should optimal decoupling last relative to your race duration? There is no research to back this up, but based on experience, for cycling I use two to four hours of steady AeT exercise as the common range. For running it is one to two hours. The longer the event the longer the coupling necessary for success. If your cycling-related race duration typically falls into the two- to four-hour range simply train for that duration at AeT. For example, if you do the bike portion of a half-iron-distance triathlon or bike road race with a typical time of around 2.5 hours, then do 2.5-hour AeT bike workouts (not including warm-up and cool down). Should your race times be less than two hours (criterium bike racing and sprint- or Olympic-distance triathlon bike portions) then your AeT bike workout is two hours. If your event takes longer than four hours (Ironman-distance bike and long road races) your AeT bike workout will be four hours duration."

    so my question is if my events will never be more than 2.5 hours at this point is there much point in doing 3 or 4 hour rides or longer?

    I see some people posting 5+ hour rides in the training status thread, how does this help for shorter events?

    would you get more out of a 5 hour ride or 2 X 2.5 hour rides if you events are only 2.5 hours?

  2. #2
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Depends on what you do during those rides. My rule of thumb is to train a bit longer than the time and distance of your events at least 1-2 times a week. But again, what you do during those rides has a greater impact than just duration.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Smallguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Depends on what you do during those rides. My rule of thumb is to train a bit longer than the time and distance of your events at least 1-2 times a week. But again, what you do during those rides has a greater impact than just duration.
    I know Joe is referring to decoupling tests in his article

    I get that what your doing is very important.. ie riding a zone 1-2 effort for 2 hours isn't going to prepare you to race in zones 4and 5 for 2 hours

    I guess what I found interesting was he gave lengths for the test but it seems like he was also saying there was really no need to ride longer than 2.5 hours if your races are 2.5 hours.... and I was wondering how others felt or if I was mis-unstanding him.

    although I'm not an accomplished racer I have always followed your rule of thumb and if my races are 80km I want to be doing base rides around 100km to even 120km. I think it helps physically and mentally knowing you can ride 120km and your race is 80km

  4. #4
    In the top 42% ridethatbike's Avatar
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    Good thing none of my races are over an hour (yet).
    http://swiii.blogspot.com - just some guy learning how to race...in his mid-30's

  5. #5
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    I've only ever won one race that was longer than my training rides. Most other times, I'm pretty fubar'd by the time 5km to go rolls around.

  6. #6
    Senior Member graphs's Avatar
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    I like to think I'm training for where I want to be, not necessarily where I am. So, even though most races I currently do are in the 1.5 hour range, my hope is that an upgrade is not too far off and longer races will be forthcoming, so I'm still doing 3-4 hour endurance rides. The thought of having greater endurance than those I'm competing against is a great motivator even if long base miles/hours won't necessarily guarantee it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallguy View Post
    so my question is if my events will never be more than 2.5 hours at this point is there much point in doing 3 or 4 hour rides or longer?

    I see some people posting 5+ hour rides in the training status thread, how does this help for shorter events?

    would you get more out of a 5 hour ride or 2 X 2.5 hour rides if you events are only 2.5 hours?
    i dont think there's a magic bullet for this, but in my opinion, if your event is 2.5 hrs. it will be beneficial to ride 3 to 4 hours during base in order to physically prepare for 2.5 hrs. fitness wise as well as just being able to conduct yourself on the bike for a period of time (practice drinking, eating, pee, saddle/comfort issues, stretching, etc. while moving)

    shorter events are still aerobic events, so a longer ride will have benefit. where folks get into trouble is continuing with long rides when their race season starts, thus showing up on race day with fatigue accumulated from rides that arent doing much for race specific fitness.

    if you have time to do a 5 hr. ride i think it better than two 2.5 hr. rides (done on the same day), BUT i also think that if you have time limitations, five 1-hr. rides (over 5 days for instance) is better than one 5-hr. ride (obviously 1 day).

  8. #8
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    Last edited by wfrogge; 01-14-11 at 02:36 PM.
    Please remember that all statements unless quoted, are strictly my opinion of what happened. That there are as many opinions as there are spectators attending. I just choose to publish mine on this forum. And would NEVER intend to purposely hurt or discredit any other cyclist.... With that said... HTFU!

  9. #9
    Senior Member graphs's Avatar
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    great article!

  10. #10
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graphs View Post
    I like to think I'm training for where I want to be, not necessarily where I am. So, even though most races I currently do are in the 1.5 hour range, my hope is that an upgrade is not too far off and longer races will be forthcoming, so I'm still doing 3-4 hour endurance rides. The thought of having greater endurance than those I'm competing against is a great motivator even if long base miles/hours won't necessarily guarantee it.
    One guy once told me, "If you want to be successful as a cat3, train like a cat2."

    I think that approach probably works well for whatever category you're in.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  11. #11
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
    Dude.. You just shared my secret training plan for this winter with the masses...

    OK, I'm coming to race in the LAMBRA region some this year.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  12. #12
    Senior Member graphs's Avatar
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    Yeah, it seems logical to me. The catch is increasing your workload in reasonable increments. It's easy to want to bite off more than your body can handle.

  13. #13
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graphs View Post
    Yeah, it seems logical to me. The catch is increasing your workload in reasonable increments. It's easy to want to bite off more than your body can handle.
    I did a gradual ramp, but started at 15 hours with 60 minutes of high-SST/low zone 4 work 3x a week. After the first four week cycle, I went into the second block doing the 5-6 hour/300+ tss rides once a week (and 60 minutes of high-SST/low zone 4 work 2x a week). The first couple of long rides like that left me feeling wiped out. But then they were all good as I adapted to them. The day after the long ride consisted of a 60-90 minute recovery ride, and the day after that was an off day.

    The last block ramped the hours up to a max of 21 (19, 20, 21) and I backed off the intensity a bit last week until the weekend, where I did a 5.5 hour mountain bike "race" backed up with a 5 hour zone 2 ride the following day. I was sore until Wednesday, but my legs feel great today and my threshold power is better than it's ever been. Days in between were spent doing recovery rides, with one dedicated Zone 2 ride a week.

    It was an interesting 12 week experiment, and given that my priority "A" race for the season is in October, it gave me an opportunity to try something different and if it turned out to be a failure I always had time to re-tool to fix it up. I posted most of my workouts in the training status, just didn't really tell many people what I was up to.

    My last 20' field test was in the mid-350s, so I'm estimating my threshold in the 330s right now. I can reliably do 3x20's @ 330 without too much trouble. But, I don't have much high end since I haven't really done any vo2 work. I estimated my threshold in the 300-305 range when I started the experiment, but I've previously been as high as 320-325, so I've only "gained" 10w over my previous best. BUT, I don't even feel like I'm close to a peak right now, and haven't really done anything that redlines me until yesterday when I did a 5' test.

    The next question will be to see how long I can maintain it... I'm now going to be doing a more traditional "build" series with more muscle strength work for the next two blocks, while racing for training every weekend for some higher intensity. The tough part will be the recovery over the next window.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    Dude.. You just shared my secret training plan for this winter with the masses...

    OK, I'm coming to race in the LAMBRA region some this year.

    Bring it
    Please remember that all statements unless quoted, are strictly my opinion of what happened. That there are as many opinions as there are spectators attending. I just choose to publish mine on this forum. And would NEVER intend to purposely hurt or discredit any other cyclist.... With that said... HTFU!

  15. #15
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
    Bring it
    Pensacola wasn't really LAMBRA, but most of the guys there were LAMBRA types. We split a little over $1000 four ways and laughed all the way home.

    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  16. #16
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    When you do those once a month "epic" rides it supposed to hurt. As Allen says in the article I linked "rides that force you to dig deep near the end so when you reach home you are tired and your muscles are quivering from the fatigue.

    I am from the camp that thinks most riders do really well on 10-14 hours a week (max) but you cannot overlook these high volume weekend rides if you want to get better. Also make sure you keep the pressure on the pedals at all times when you are out there. Do a ride like this once or twice a month from now until May and I bet money you will stronger than before.
    Please remember that all statements unless quoted, are strictly my opinion of what happened. That there are as many opinions as there are spectators attending. I just choose to publish mine on this forum. And would NEVER intend to purposely hurt or discredit any other cyclist.... With that said... HTFU!

  17. #17
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    It helps to get into a fight with a good friend, girlfriend, or spouse before heading out the door.
    Putting the Duh in Floriduh.

  18. #18
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    OK, I'm coming to race in the LAMBRA region some this year.
    Let me know.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
    nice find!

  20. #20
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    Don't train to your race length. If you do you will be sucking wind at the end. Instead train to longer than your race length. Don't you think that you will do better if you are at the end of the race and you are still fresh?
    I'm the world's forgotten boy. The one who's searchin', searchin' to destroy.

  21. #21
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mollusk View Post
    Don't train to your race length. If you do you will be sucking wind at the end. Instead train to longer than your race length. Don't you think that you will do better if you are at the end of the race and you are still fresh?
    But it's a 90-mile race...
    cat 1.

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  22. #22
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    One guy once told me, "If you want to be successful as a cat3, train like a cat2."

    I think that approach probably works well for whatever category you're in.
    I'm cat 5, but I definitely train like a cat 4.

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  23. #23
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    But it's a 90-mile race...
    Train for longer. Duh.
    I'm the world's forgotten boy. The one who's searchin', searchin' to destroy.

  24. #24
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    I'm cat 5, but I definitely train like a cat 4.
    Might as well quit right now. Start training like a 3 at least.
    I'm the world's forgotten boy. The one who's searchin', searchin' to destroy.

  25. #25
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mollusk View Post
    Train for longer. Duh.
    But longer by time or distance?

    E.g. if I'm doing a 90-mile endurance ride it could take 6+ hours, whereas the race will be closer to 4-4.5 hours.

    I really just wanted to put it out there that I'm doing a 90-mile RR this season! Yup, it really is the Ultimate Cat.
    cat 1.

    blog

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