Leipheimer TT position or Cancellara TT position: which is better?
#1
Are you with me
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 1,311
Bikes: Giant TCR Advanced SL, Blue T-14 TT bike
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Leipheimer TT position or Cancellara TT position: which is better?
As the season approaches I realize I can close up the gap in my TT position so it resembles more of a Leipheimer position than that of Tony Martin or Cancellara. I included a photo of Millar b/c he's sort of in-between. For me, it's just a question of going with up-turned aerobars and I can get close to the Leipheimer position without any loss of comfort.
I'm making the assumption that the "closed" Leipheimer position produces a better aerodynamic profile -- e.g. the wind encounters a single mass and glides around it. The Martin/Cancellara position seems to invite the wind in between the arms where it bounces off the rider's quads and mid-section. The only way I can test is via downhill coast and I will try this soon. If the Leipheimer position is superior, why don't riders like Martin and Cancellara close the gap more? I realize Cancellara would win most TTs on a huffy mtb, but still, why not work on the position?
Thanks
Leipheimer closed gap:
David Millar medium sized gap reduced with upturned aerobars:
Tony Martin big gap:
Cancellara big gap:
I'm making the assumption that the "closed" Leipheimer position produces a better aerodynamic profile -- e.g. the wind encounters a single mass and glides around it. The Martin/Cancellara position seems to invite the wind in between the arms where it bounces off the rider's quads and mid-section. The only way I can test is via downhill coast and I will try this soon. If the Leipheimer position is superior, why don't riders like Martin and Cancellara close the gap more? I realize Cancellara would win most TTs on a huffy mtb, but still, why not work on the position?
Thanks
Leipheimer closed gap:
David Millar medium sized gap reduced with upturned aerobars:
Tony Martin big gap:
Cancellara big gap:
#3
Ninja don't wear flipflop
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NE TN
Posts: 1,443
Bikes: Specialized S-Works Roubaix SL3, BMC TM01...if it every ships
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
No one position is better. It is power to cda that matters. There is a balance point between power production and aggressive position that you have to find. Also, the optimal position has a lot to do with your body type. Fabian may have huge drag numbers in using Levi's position. Generally speaking trying to get your head position correct will have the biggest influence on drag.
#4
Draught
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Georgia
Posts: 4,051
Bikes: N-1 where N = number needed
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I imagine they work on the positions quite a bit. There's probably a point of diminishing returns between aero and breathing efficiently. My guess is they're right on the cusp of that in their positions.
#5
fuggitivo solitario
my half-assed guess would be the optimization of power production vs CdA. Leipheimer is a small guy, maybe 135 lbs dripping wet. He needs to minimize his CdA, and if he pays by losing 20 W, so be it. Cancellara has 45 lbs on Levi, and assuming his ftp is 6.4w/kg (which is what world record holders put out), that's 280 watts right there. In his case, it may be better to get more watts out and pay a little more price in CdA. That scrunched-up position of Leipheimer sure doesn't look very comfortable.
Edit: got ninjaed thrice over...
Edit: got ninjaed thrice over...
#6
Are you with me
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 1,311
Bikes: Giant TCR Advanced SL, Blue T-14 TT bike
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Can you expand on this? Is the idea that aero-helmeted head, positioned properly, will have the largest impact on aero profile even if the rest of the body is not necessarily positioned in an aero manner?
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,505
Bikes: 2006 Specialized Roubaix Comp
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Those bigger guys also have longer legs. If Cancellara was squished down, he'd be kneeing himself in the chest. Martin and Cancellara also look to have a flatter back. That may help with their aerodynamics. Levi's helmet isn't flat against his back. Levi also looks to be really compressing his diaphram. You need range of motion and the ability to breathe well to put out enough power. Like others have said, perhaps any power loss on Levi's end due to position is outweighed by his aerodynamics. That probably wouldn't be the case for the bigger guys.
Leipheimer's position is probably superior if you're testing coasting downhill. The question is whether you can sit like that and pedal hard on roads that aren't downhill.
Leipheimer's position is probably superior if you're testing coasting downhill. The question is whether you can sit like that and pedal hard on roads that aren't downhill.
#8
Are you with me
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 1,311
Bikes: Giant TCR Advanced SL, Blue T-14 TT bike
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Those bigger guys also have longer legs. If Cancellara was squished down, he'd be kneeing himself in the chest. Martin and Cancellara also look to have a flatter back. That may help with their aerodynamics. Levi's helmet isn't flat against his back. Levi also looks to be really compressing his diaphram. You need range of motion and the ability to breathe well to put out enough power. Like others have said, perhaps any power loss on Levi's end due to position is outweighed by his aerodynamics. That probably wouldn't be the case for the bigger guys.
Leipheimer's position is probably superior if you're testing coasting downhill. The question is whether you can sit like that and pedal hard on roads that aren't downhill.
Leipheimer's position is probably superior if you're testing coasting downhill. The question is whether you can sit like that and pedal hard on roads that aren't downhill.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: TX
Posts: 2,620
Bikes: Orbea Orca Trek 5500 Trek Equinox
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I wouldn't do this when it comes to the aerodynamics of TT positions. The reality is, you won't know without extensive field testing, and even then, that's only at 0 yaw. There are too many things that interact with each other when it comes to TT positions that there is never a blanket answer to what is "best." The real answer is, "It depends..." Queerpunk is also correct, Levi has T-rex arms, which helps him create that "egg" position.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: TX
Posts: 2,620
Bikes: Orbea Orca Trek 5500 Trek Equinox
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Oh, and practice holding your position, whichever you decide on. For instance, if you decide on Levi's arm position, be sure to practice it. Levi even practices it while eating.
#13
Are you with me
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 1,311
Bikes: Giant TCR Advanced SL, Blue T-14 TT bike
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: TX
Posts: 2,620
Bikes: Orbea Orca Trek 5500 Trek Equinox
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Looking down, or a "tail up" position is often faster because is reduces your frontal area (your head become in line with your body). But, typically you want to "turtle" your head so that you can get your head inline with your body, but still be able to look up the road.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Frontal area is critical. All of their chest/stomachs are parallel to the ground presenting a smaller area to the wind. Backs are all different based on genetics. Armstrong has the huge hump but if you look at his chest...totally parallel to the ground. They're also focusing more on the gap between their arms they're calling the box. Mine has a bus in it.
#16
Senior Member
Look closely: Levi has his head down. At this moment in time, he can't even see where he's going. The others have their heads up. If Levi looked up the road like they were doing when the photo was taken, he'd have an "open gap" too.
Granted, it may not be as much as them, but he's all of--what?--5 feet 3 inches? Compared to them being close to--or over--6 feet tall.
In the end, it's a balance between aerodynamics and power production where power production can be hampered by too tight of a position, making it energy-inefficient, reducing the aerodynamic benefits.
Granted, it may not be as much as them, but he's all of--what?--5 feet 3 inches? Compared to them being close to--or over--6 feet tall.
In the end, it's a balance between aerodynamics and power production where power production can be hampered by too tight of a position, making it energy-inefficient, reducing the aerodynamic benefits.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
my half-assed guess would be the optimization of power production vs CdA. Leipheimer is a small guy, maybe 135 lbs dripping wet. He needs to minimize his CdA, and if he pays by losing 20 W, so be it. Cancellara has 45 lbs on Levi, and assuming his ftp is 6.4w/kg (which is what world record holders put out), that's 280 watts right there. In his case, it may be better to get more watts out and pay a little more price in CdA. That scrunched-up position of Leipheimer sure doesn't look very comfortable.
Edit: got ninjaed thrice over...
Edit: got ninjaed thrice over...
#19
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,275
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1428 Post(s)
Liked 697 Times
in
353 Posts
my half-assed guess would be the optimization of power production vs CdA. Leipheimer is a small guy, maybe 135 lbs dripping wet. He needs to minimize his CdA, and if he pays by losing 20 W, so be it. Cancellara has 45 lbs on Levi, and assuming his ftp is 6.4w/kg (which is what world record holders put out), that's 280 watts right there. In his case, it may be better to get more watts out and pay a little more price in CdA. That scrunched-up position of Leipheimer sure doesn't look very comfortable.
Edit: got ninjaed thrice over...
Edit: got ninjaed thrice over...
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: TX
Posts: 2,620
Bikes: Orbea Orca Trek 5500 Trek Equinox
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Frontal area is critical. All of their chest/stomachs are parallel to the ground presenting a smaller area to the wind. Backs are all different based on genetics. Armstrong has the huge hump but if you look at his chest...totally parallel to the ground. They're also focusing more on the gap between their arms they're calling the box. Mine has a bus in it.
And his 2009 set up at ToC was just awful IMO.
Anyways, to the OP - If it were me, I wouldn't go hands up unless I did a lot of testing. I put a fair amount of research into trying to figure out when a hands up position would work (body type, helmet shape, shoulder shape, back exposure, etc), looking at years of tunnel data. I also had quite a few discussions with John Cobb and even thought I had it figured out. So, Cobb and I tested it during a trip last year. Let's just say I've given up trying to predict positional drag based on someone elses results. You just don't know unless you go to the tunnel.
To quote Cobb:
" I’ve been working for over a year on how to know when to recommend to a rider that the “hands high” position might work. I’ve tested many riders of different shapes to develop a good working knowledge base, I still will say for certain, that if there is any doubt, keep the lower hand height because when high hands don’t work, they really, really don’t work. When high hands work however, they are faster by a bunch."
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
My guess is Cancellara is more about 6 w/kg. He got about 40lb on Contador therefore he can produce more raw power at the same time he has to carry the extra weight and his bigger body is less aero. He got 20-25% extra weight over Contador or Andy S but he does not have 20-25% extra power over them.
After all he is winning those TT by seconds or 1:02 in 1h race (WC TT) where he won by about 2%.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks for the info. I guess my point wasn't Lance in particular. The guys I've looked at, the group at the top + Lance, appear to keep their chests parallel. Trying to keep your back straight just isn't practical and I don't make that one of my goals. First goal is to get rid of the gut. Second is try to adjust my position to reduce my substantial frontal area and getting my chest parallel is one of many factors.
On Lance, I think he dropped Watts being that low. In one of his videos he talked about how Levi can get so low and how really fast TTers look right in front of their wheel and he couldn't ride that way. I took that to mean he was only willing to do so much to his position.
Speaking of wind tunnel, I already told my wife that's what I want for my b-day present. Cheers.
On Lance, I think he dropped Watts being that low. In one of his videos he talked about how Levi can get so low and how really fast TTers look right in front of their wheel and he couldn't ride that way. I took that to mean he was only willing to do so much to his position.
Speaking of wind tunnel, I already told my wife that's what I want for my b-day present. Cheers.
#23
fuggitivo solitario
opps, i thought 250W sounded a bit high. FWIW, Cancellara beat both Leipheimer and Pistolero in the olympic time trial in Beijing. That course was by no means flat.
#24
Elite Fred
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edge City
Posts: 10,945
Bikes: 2009 Spooky (cracked frame), 2006 Curtlo, 2002 Lemond (current race bike) Zurich, 1987 Serotta Colorado, 1986 Cannondale for commuting, a 1984 Cannondale on loan to my son
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times
in
19 Posts
I bet that Levi's position is better for Levi and Fabian's position is better for Fabian. I have no idea what is your optimal position. Try a bunch of different things yourself.